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View Full Version : Backpressure, flow ratings and other nonsense.



Sparky2263
11-16-07, 11:35 PM
Back-pressure, flow ratings, restrictions, etc, blah, blah and blah.

Considering most of us have V6's, all those fancy flow ratings won't mean a lot. If somebody want's to get with the math, that'd be cool. Something like cu. in./2/2 x rpm's x .8/1728? The 2 being duals, the next 2 being a four stroke engine (2 revolutions for 1 exhaust valve opening), .8 being efficiency and 1728 being the number of cubic inches in a cubic foot.

Comes out to a staggering 182 cfm at 6000 rpm's for our 262. But that's just a distraction. More on that later. This was about backpressure.

The year is 1978. My 1974 GMC 1/2 ton just got home from the car lot and I'm headed straight for the hacksaw. 3 hours and 4 blades later, I'm done. Stock exhaust from the y-pipe back is laying on the ground, cherry bomb is installed so it ends right under the passenger seat, and I'm blazing a trail down the street as the neighbors run out in horror and my parents go hide. Massive horsepower and sound increase. Suhweeet.

3 things happened that night. My g/f’s feet got hot (slide over here real close), I saw a glowing red exhaust system for the first time, and I found that even though my truck was louder than Zach’s 429 Ford 1/2 ton, I could not outrun it. Yet.

My first experience with backpressure led to my first experience with carburetors. Yes, I had gained a lot of power but in the process had leaned out the fuel mixture so badly it resembled Chernobyl by the time I got to town. The next few weeks were spent learning carburetors and distributors and I probably doubled my horsepower gain. Not bad for the price of a $10 cherry bomb, 3 hacksaw blades, a $1.99 dist spring kit, and a $7 carb kit. And I still couldn’t outrun Zachs 429 Ford 1/2 ton. Yet.

My $49 Blackjack headers arrive and on they go. Damn, that paint don’t last long with a glowing orange header. So off comes the top of the Quadrajet, again. Go hunt down Zach again. Cool, at least he doesn’t beat me as bad, again. Did I mention the excessive noise ticket for the open headers? I stay out of town for a few days ‘cause I’m really enjoying ripping down the dirt roads with open headers. The power is ungodly (I’m assuming it’s capable of a low 15 second ¼ mile by now) gotta be at least, what, 3-400 hp? ;)

Anyway, g/f decides she’s tired of my loud truck and staying in the woods all the time (I didn’t see the problem). So I went and got me 2 Thrush turbo mufflers. WTF!?! How could I lose so much power? And now I’m blowing black smoke at full throttle!

Backpressure.

Backpressure is bad. Period. End of story. No debate. Think you need “x” amount of backpressure for low end torque? You already got it the minute you bolt anything to the exhaust side of the cylinder head. And I mean anything. All this backpressure crap started in the late 70’s when instructors at automotive schools started teaching about backpressure EGR valves and how ANY modifications to the exhaust would relegate the customers engine to the scrap heap. Some major “Gloom and Doom” prophecies going on here.

Somehow it spread to the armchair racers. Guess a few of ‘em made it to those classes and needed to sound important and words like “low speed torque”, “cam overlap”, and (gasp) "backpressure", made ‘em sound important. Well, by golly, the gospel of backpressure was born and spread like wildfire.

I’ll say it again, BACKPRESSURE IS BAD!

You guys have it easier. We have MAF’s now. Very easy test. Get your exhaust where you can drop it at the y-pipe. Drive to the local track. Make a pass, then, drop the exhaust at the y-pipe. No muff, no cat, nothing. Go make another pass. You’ll pick up between .3-.5 seconds in the ¼ and you’ll notice something else while driving it around the track (besides the folks looking at your raggedy sounding ass). It’s responsive and peppy on the bottom end like it’s never been. Gee, how could that be? Uncle John Cockbite said if I didn’t have a bunch of backpressure, I’d kill the bottom end! Blah, blah, ****in’ blah.

Anyone disagree? Post away………..

;)

Oh yeah, as for flow ratings, I got time slips that say flow ratings ain’t so accurate. We’ll save that for another time.

bespurcell
11-17-07, 10:38 AM
This is a good article. I have a subscription and had to look through them last night to find it. I then found it on their website.
http://www.popularhotrodding.com/enginemasters/articles/hardcore/0505em_exh/index.html

Sparky2263
11-17-07, 01:20 PM
Lots of cfm ratings, nice pictures and product advertising yet only 1 dyno test. Extending the collector length on a circle track car. Why not any muffler dyno tests?

Wanna know why? Because when you put a muffler, any muffler on an exhaust system, you lose power. Period. 0 loss system my ass. Ain't no such animal 'cause if one was invented, that guy would be rich beyond means.

Don't get me wrong, it's a nice article. Just doesn't back up any claims of a no loss system. 'cause there ain't one.

boxcarracer963
11-17-07, 01:58 PM
so did u ever beat the 429 1/2 ton ford pickup?

Everfalling
11-17-07, 03:53 PM
x2

so did u ever beat the 429 1/2 ton ford pickup?

bespurcell
11-17-07, 06:42 PM
Lots of cfm ratings, nice pictures and product advertising yet only 1 dyno test. Extending the collector length on a circle track car. Why not any muffler dyno tests?

Wanna know why? Because when you put a muffler, any muffler on an exhaust system, you lose power. Period. 0 loss system my ass. Ain't no such animal 'cause if one was invented, that guy would be rich beyond means.

Don't get me wrong, it's a nice article. Just doesn't back up any claims of a no loss system. 'cause there ain't one.

I just thought it would clear some things up. The main point of the article was how to design an exhaust system with minimal power loss. This guy did another article with dyno tests that back up what he says. I just could'nt find it. He does alot of tech articles for PHR and seems to know his stuff. Quit being so grumpy I was just trying to help.:D

P.S. X3 on the 429 ford.

Sparky2263
11-17-07, 07:34 PM
Yes, by a nose. It took 4.11 gears, a Vega converter (that's all we had back then) the biggest hydraulic cam I could find, lots of headwork on some 461 heads, a Torker intake and 750 Holley.

He promptly went out and had daddy spend a bunch more money on the truck and challenged me to a re-run. For $500. That was a months pay for me.

So, I went to the sped shop and asked the guy what I could do. He asked me if I ever heard of nitrous oxide. Huh? No. Got $300? Yeah. Wanna win $500? Yeah. Gimme $300 then. Okay.

Waxed that ass by 2 lengths. Then he beat me up. Then my brother beat him up. Then I stole his g/f. Then he tried to beat me up again. Learned about getting the drop on somebody. Denied.

By todays standards, a mid 13 doesn't sound like much. Back then I could walk the dog on most anything on the road. At 16...............

Sparky2263
11-17-07, 07:43 PM
The main point of the article was how to design an exhaust system with minimal power loss. Quit being so grumpy I was just trying to help.:D

P.S. X3 on the 429 ford.

Agreed on the point in the article. And I'm really not that grumpy, I just get particularly peeved at some of the nonsense that goes around on these forums. People speaking from a point of authority that really don't have a clue.

So, did I say it strongly? Hell yes, it needed to be said strongly. I was one of the ones in those schools back then listening to that crap. And almost bought it. It just didn't quite make sense. So, I went back to the tried and true method of see for yourself.

So yes, you did help by pointing people to that article. I just wanted to stress keeping a critical point of view when perusing all the fancy math.

My favorite math is a time slip, dyno pass or lap time. The only ones that count. ;)

DKB311
05-05-08, 11:06 PM
[quote=Sparky2263;103820]

I’ll say it again, BACKPRESSURE IS BAD!


Agreed, like my power;) , but sum auto's:confused: , like 4.3 v6, and 4 bangers, and ect, dont sound good wit no exshuast
so you gonna have sum....lol
plus cops are dicks these days!:D

Zygoat
05-06-08, 12:09 AM
your right but i don't think you know y. back pressure is bad ALWAYS! agreed. but the problem with some exhaust systems, and the problem with going with too large a diameter of pipe is that it INCREASES back pressure. thats right, i didn't studder, bigger pipe = MORE back pressure. why? how? read on.

the problem lies with how gases flow, when a gas is enclosed in a tube and given a certain force on it(in this case the motor "pushes" the exhaust out), it will flow through the tube at a certain speed. now heres the thing, the speed at which the gas flows depends on its temperature. (makes sense, if it doesn't try pouring warm syrup and cold syrup, and then hit yourself.)

the catch 22, when you increase the volume of the container the gas is in (ie bigger pipe) the gas expands and cools. thus it slows down, then all the fast moving air behind it "runs into it" and slows down too, this continues on back to the cylinder and results in less exhaust being "pushed" or "drawn" out of the cylinder and less power.

the catch 22, (two) if the pipe is too small it will not be able to handle the volume of air that the motor is putting out and the result will be the same as above.

the solution: the exhaust must be properly sized! there are many formulas out there to do this, but the idea is to have a pipe big enough to be able to flow all of the exhaust the motor puts out, yet small enough to keep the gas velocities high. that is the trick. but it is the key to gaining good power. it can actually be used, in conjunction with the exhaust pulses and tube length to create negative pressure at the exhaust port when the valve opens and literally "suck" the exhaust gases and burnt mixture out of the chamber, and during the valve overlap "suck" fresh air into the chamber! this requires incredible precision and accuracy and is not generally done but it CAN be.

now one last point, about the "0" loss or no restriction systems. it is technically possible. it is not possible to have no restriction, you are correct. but you can cheat! using the above methods you can cause the exhaust gases to speed up, by any number of means and the result is less restriction than you would have if you had no exhaust at all!

i hope this helps clear it up, if you have questions please ask.
most of my information comes from several books but most notably maximum boost by corky bell (worth the money)

also here is a spread sheet i made that has an exhaust section that can be used to help calculate proper pipe size. (every car is different so it wont be perfect but it should be somewhere to start.)

http://home.comcast.net/~jdjustin58/Blazer_turbo_locked.xls (http://home.comcast.net/%7Ejdjustin58/Blazer_turbo_locked.xls)

enjoy!