Tuner guys, need advice [Archive]

Eat-Pez

06-18-08, 02:33 AM

I'm building an RX7 with a 4.3 from a 97 Astro. Engine is almost built and I'm picking up my roller next weekend. I've got the 270ahr cam and it SAYS that it is compatible with the stock tune. But with my experience with LS1s is that even a midly modified motor can pick up 25hp from a good tune.

My problem is that I can't find anyone to tune the damn thing. Every dyno shop I call says they can tune 00+ 4.3s but no 97s.

My question is, can I snag a PCM from a 00+ and roll, or is there major differences in the engine that I need to be aware of?

I dont mind rebuilding my harness, if the pinouts are different, but I know there are ways around this. Hell, I've gotten an LS2 to run with an LS1 PCM/harness before, I know I can make this damn thing run.
I just want to get it to run and get it tuned.

04silveradomykk

06-18-08, 11:10 AM

Asuming your 97 Astro 4.3L is the Vortec CPFI or MPFI. Grab a PCM from a 99+ 4.3L... they are the same fuel injection but the 99+ PCMS are flashable.

turbine guy

06-18-08, 11:26 AM

Eat-Pez; Good question, I'm not the expert here. I know the '97s are an orphan, with major changes to the VCM made in '98. As far as I know, the engines are the same though, just the VCMs are different.
HP Tuners allows me to patch into the '98 VCMs, so I suspect that if you pick up one of these units, and the matching wiring harness, you should be good to go. Have you posted this question on the HP Tuners forum? The guys there can probably answer you in a flash. (Bad pun intended.)
Even with my mild '92-'95 "X" Cam (208/208 degrees @ .050") I could see where my VE table had to be leaned out on the bottom end , and richend quite a bit at the 5100 Rpm range, to get it dialed in. The CC 270 AHR will definately benefit from tuning, as the VE will need a big bump in the 5000-5500 Rpm range. I'm doing this exact same cam swap in a 4.3L in a few days. But I'm using the Rhoads V-Max OE lifters, which should really change things up on the bottom end. On the high end, my VE map tuning should be the same as yours though.
One other note, the HP Tuner guys all say that the 1999 and up 4.3L use the standard Gen-III LS VCM. If you snag one of these, and the wiring harness, then I can really help you out, as my tunes can go directly into this VCM. (My truck is an '03, which uses an LSx type VCM.)
So....sounds like you have a couple choices; '98 4.3L or 5.7L VCM, or '99 and up LSx VCM (Just not Gen-IV LSx, as supposedly these will not work.)
Hope this helps.

turbine guy

Zygoat

06-18-08, 05:57 PM

i know it can be done. 98 ss did in on s10forum.com the wiring harness will have to be changed. he could probably help you alot.

Eat-Pez

06-18-08, 06:22 PM

Excellent, thanks guys. I currently have the 97 harness. If I could get some blank GenIII PCM plugs and a 99+ pinout, I could rebuild this harness to correspond with the GenIII PCM. That seems to be the best way to go. I can find someone to tune the car that way.

One other question: is there a decent tuner program like TunerCat, HPtuners, EFILive or whatever that is kind of universal? I would really like to have a program like that where I could read the codes and edit my wife's Oldsmobile, my work vans, my Silverado, my LS1 RX7, the LS1 RX7s that I build, this 4.3L RX7, etc. I would really have a use for a program like that, but don't want to pay an arm for the program and a leg for all of the licenses.

Zygoat

06-18-08, 07:21 PM

hp would probably be my choice, efi maybe (don't know it that well) not tunercat, (now jet dst) you get 4 licenses and then you have to buy more, and it only works on a very limited number of pcms.

Zygoat

06-18-08, 07:22 PM

and it doesnt datalog so you have to buy other software to do that, at a minimum, if not a whole other software and hardware packedge.

dam. i really should have swapped pcms!

rabidbandit

06-19-08, 09:31 AM

I love my EFILive and includes software, handheld, and 2 licenses, and discounts on unlimited streams with every addtional license for $799! EFI Flashscan's V2 handheld will log data and flash tunes from the unit by adding an SD flash card..I have a 512mb in mine for logging. The laptop can be used the same way. Plus it has 6 analog inputs at the base of the handheld unit for sensors like pyro, wideband, and various others. I would definately shoot for the '00 and newer PCM...snag a harness from the junk yard...they are all over. Plus the new PCM's have more parameters that are available along with faster data logging and transfer speed bi-directionally. Flashes are performed in about 30sec. and full PCM reads in about 2min. You could use the 98-00 vortec units...you will just have a few less items in the drop-down menu:)

Eat-Pez

06-19-08, 12:49 PM

Excellent. I got a 00 harness and pcm from a bone yard for $100. It is the GenIII style computer with the 2 PCM plugs, red and blue. Anyone have the pin outs?

turbine guy

06-19-08, 07:19 PM

Looking for 'em, looking for 'em..........

turbine guy

rabidbandit

06-19-08, 09:07 PM

yes...I have the pinouts and descriptions...I'll have to convert them to pics....all-data is great...lol...give me a day...I'll have them up for you!

Eat-Pez

06-20-08, 09:09 PM

Thanks guys.

TurbineGuy, when you get your cam installed and tuned, would you mind copying the program over to my PCM? I'll gladly pay shipping both ways and don't mind putting a little boot on top for your trouble. Also, I'll need a few things like VATS removed, all tranny program lines removed (going T5), rear O2s, EVAP, & EGR removed.

What are the advantages of the Rhoads V-Max OE lifters?

If you can help, this would make my project a bit easier. Thanks.

Here's a pic of the roller, for those interested

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d92/stdgrabbag/rx7/100_0824.jpg

BTW, I know this is an S10 site, I hope I'm not offending anyone since I don't own an S10 anymore. I used to have a '90 TBI S10 Blazer. I beat the **** out of that thing and sold it at 340k miles. Loved the truck and love the motor. Now, I have a few Astros that I use for work.

Hammer Head

06-20-08, 10:28 PM

Here's some pinouts from a while back..

http://www.s10planet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5847

Eat-Pez

06-20-08, 10:49 PM

Thanks, but I only see the pinouts for the Silverado.

Hammer Head

06-20-08, 10:53 PM

Hmm.. it was supposed to be on post #6. Guess Sparky pulled the pix. Sorry about that.

turbine guy

06-21-08, 01:50 AM

Eat-Pez; Blasphemy! I'm a rotor head. '84 GSLSE autocrosser, My daughter (had) an '84 GS. I also have a '79 and '84 RX7 ice racers. I have a '74 RX4 waiting for me to do something with it. Over the years I've had many Rotaries, including a REPU. Now that I think of it, the REPU ended up with a 300 Buick V8 in it, with a Super Turbine-300 Switch-Pitch transmission.
Still have the Turbo-II out of the roller? I'll make you a swap, "tuning for turbo".

Sure, I can take a stab at a tune for you. It will cost you the value of the HP Tuners "credits", which for a GM product, I think is $50.00, but I'll check to make sure.

Rhoads? Have a read of my thread started in the 4.3L "engines & components" forum. It should answer your questions as to why I'm going to try them out. They will require a considerably different VE map on the bottom end than your setup with straight hydraulic rollers, (Rhoads lifters should require essentially a stock VE map on the bottom end.) The new "V-Max" offer a bit more adjustability to dial in the amount of variable duration and lift needed, which on the 4.3's we need as much bottom end as we can get. In the fly-wieght RX7 body, this will not be needed, especially if your going stick, but in a fullsize GMT-800 body, and automatic, as much torque off idle as possible is welcome.

turbine guy

Eat-Pez

06-21-08, 12:34 PM

Crap, I get s*** from rotor guys everywhere I turn.... haha.

Ya, the car still has the long block. The seller said that he bought it as a roller to do an LM7 swap, but HIS seller said that he rebuilt the rotary, put the engine in, and that's where he quit. According to this guy, all that is needed is to put the intake manifolds, accessaries, radiator, etc, and the engine will be ready. I'm thinking about bringing a rotary buddy over to see if we can get it running and then it will be worth alot more when I yank it out.

I do like the 1st gen RX7s and they really do have a flyweight body, but the 2nd gens pack on another 600+lbs. That still makes them lighter than most cars on the road, but the rotaries don't put out as much power as I want. Take an NA FC, 135hp to the flywheel, 20 years ago. That translates to 80WHP now. If you've got 80hp in a car that is supposed to be a sports car, maybe you need to re-evaluate what's under the hood. My last LS1 FC did 0-60 in 3.2 on tires, and 0-100-0 in 11.6 and constantly run 7.6s at the local 1/8 track. It would get outta the way....

Any help with this would be great. I'm helping my neighbor's kid build this. He's helped me pull or put in an engine at least a dozen times over the years and he just got his lisence. We're trying to build this on a $2000 budget, but I'm giving him the engine.

rabidbandit

06-21-08, 01:03 PM

Here's the pinouts for a 2002 S10 Blazer/Pickup with the LS1 style PCM
enjoy:D :

5400

5401

5402

5403

Eat-Pez

06-21-08, 07:06 PM

Bootyful

turbine guy

06-21-08, 07:31 PM

Rabidbandit; You 'da man.

Eat-Pez; I LOVE licking cars with twice the power, on the track. My GSLSE is engine stock, save for an RB header and exhaust. All of 140 hummin' ponies to the wheels. A 'cross whore brought his fully prepped '90 Vette out, 427 stroker SBC, V700's, the works. In the end it was him and I separated by mere split seconds, once you factor in all the mashed cones. My little RX7 blew his mind. Nope, he never did come back to "my track". 1/4 mile though, you're right, different story. I just like to throw a few corners into my goin' fast. Do a google search on "Targa Newfoundland" some time. That's my next goal. ('04 WRX Sti.)

If you decide to dump the T-II, let me know.

turbine guy

Eat-Pez

06-21-08, 08:01 PM

Search RXSevin on youtube. I've got a few vids of drag racing, autocrossing and mountain roads. Since the LS1 is all aluminum, it weighs within 30lbs of the TII longblock, so handling is not effected.

I'm a noob at autox, but last time I went to an event, the instructors with their race prepped Miatas on R Comps were running high 61secs & low 62sec passes. I was doing mid 64sec passes on Z rated Nittos. Not only that, but it was a pretty slow track, so I couldn't take advantage of the fact that I had 3x their torque.

Also search "88 LS1" and you'll see a vid that a friend made while playing with some video editing software.

I don't have any vids of my LS1 FD yet, but I posted pics of all of my V8 7s in another thread. If you didn't see it, I'll look it up for ya. I've also built another 4 cars for other people.

The 4.3 will weigh more, but I really don't think it will matter. We're just looking for a fun project that won't kill this kid. The engine already has forged, dished SpeedPro pistons, ported heads, and shorty headers. I've got a 10lb bottle in my garage, so once we get it worked out, we'll put the bottle on it and take it to the track. Kid wants to beat his uncle who has a sprayed, cammed 5.Slow GT.

I like turns too. Once, a guy in a TA wanted a piece of me in the 1/4. I kicked his ass -- at 10 cars, I started to let up so I wouldn't beat him too bad. Then, a few days later, his friend who has, basically a drag car with a lisence plate wanted to race me to get his money back. He would only race me heads up. I said, "I only race heads up if it's a comparible car. If you don't have a full interior, AC, PS, radials and can get 30mpgs, you're not a comparible car." He insisted, so I said that I would race him, heads up, and I pick the road. He said ok, so we gave our money to a 3rd party, and at 2am, we went out in the country and I took him to a road with a sharp 90* turn, stopped about 100 yards from the turn and told him to line em up. He cried and *****ed because of the turn. He wouldn't race. Too bad I only got $100 out of him...

rabidbandit

06-22-08, 10:04 AM

Rabidbandit; You 'da man.

LOL!...thanks:D ...I also have electrical diagrams, connector views, torque specs, parts/labor rates, and full schematics/exploded views of just about every component on our trucks from about '00+ or earlier years upon request:)...just incase you need them. Also...if you have a PCM that needs a full reflash or custom OS loaded...(ie., camaro/firebird PCM re-flashed for use in an S-series...junkyard PCM's are cheeeaaap)...I can do that as well....truthfully though...I'd just buy the tuning software...cause your bound to re-program it again anyway;)

turbine guy

06-22-08, 01:01 PM

Eat-Pez: There you go........send your VCM to Rabidbandit, he'll fix you up better than I possibly could. You and I would be better off sitting back and swapping autocross/race stories. Great story BTW.

Rabid makes a valid point too. The $500.00 or so for HP Tuners, or EFI Live, would be well worth the money, if you're gonna keep messing with LS1 & 4.3L swaps.

I can't argue the power to weight ratios. The LS1's have it in spades against the rotaries. I just like 'em 'cause they're different, and everybody else is scared of them.
One of my daughter's boyfriends thought we was a mechanic. One day I set him up by opening the hood of my '7 and scratched my head. He comes over and says "whats up"? I say, "I need help setting the valves on this darn thing" He spend the rest of the afternoon trying to figure out how to do it. (I wouldn't let him just start wrenching on it, but insisted he tell me what and how he was gonna do first. The wrenches never came out. What a pric* eh?)

turbine guy

Eat-Pez

06-25-08, 08:32 PM

Bandit, do you have your 270ahr in yet? if not, how much longer before you're rolling? Would you be willing to copy your tune over to my PCM?

Turbine, another fine story of collossal ignorance..

When I had my 1st V8 RX7 running, it was an SBC in an FC. I had to cut a hole in the hood to and the air filter stuck out a little. This engine had a huge cam that loped like a mofo and the carb hat shook around in its hole.

One time, I pulled into the local Hooters and there were some ricer boys hanging around their POS cars. They were all staring at me when I cruised in. When I got out, I kinda had to walk past them to get inside and they asked, "hey, how did you get that rotary to sound like that??". I said, "I put a cam in it". They all looked impressed and some gave me a thumbs up.

Sometimes when there are new guys at my local parts store, I'll usually hit them with a few test questions to see exactly how dumb they are. I need a ...

Set of piston rings for a 88 RX7
upper radiator hose for a 79 Super Beetle
distributor cap for a 83 Corvette
a clutch slave cylinder for a Cadillac (any model but CTS-V)

rabidbandit

06-26-08, 08:24 AM

Nope...not in yet:rolleyes: ...since I have about 112k on the factory block...I'm going back and forth on if I should just get a long block and throw everything in that vs. tearing into the one in the truck. It would save me the hassle...just remove and replace engine. I don't know...still figureing stuff out. I just got my y-pipe fabed because my cat took a crap ($695):eek: freakin' jersey labor is retarded and the cats are pricey!...and I wanted something different...went to 2.25 downs to a 3in. merge and 3in. cat....freakin' sounds amazing with the Flow Super 44. And yes...when she's back together...I'll absolutly send ya the tune:D

Eat-Pez

07-05-08, 09:01 PM

Excellent.

I've been real busy with a project for work and will stay busy for the next 2 weeks. We did go get the roller the other day. Attached is a pic of us dragging it home.

Once the project is over, y'all should see good progress on this.

Is there a place to make a build thread? Would any one care?

http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x272/eat-pez/5125418784_ORIG5B15D_jpeg.jpg

12sws27

07-05-08, 09:32 PM

Eat-Pez

07-06-08, 01:25 AM

Thanks. rest assured, this won't be a still born. We've got all the big parts we need except a T5 (looking for one with a mechacinal speedo cable and a 0.63 overdrive, lemme know if you have one) and we've got many of the small pieces. Many of the pieces can be reused from the roller like the radiator, fuel pump (turbo model has the upgraded FP), throttle cable (turbo model has longer cable, and it's adjustable), AC compoments, PS pump (w/ custom bracket), many abandond circuits can be reused, etc. I've done a half dozen V8 swaps, but this is my first V6. Check the 'Let's see your other rides' thread for pics of some.

Engine is build. specs are custom fabbed upper intake to shoot the throttle body forward (still fabbing that), ported vortec heads, Comp 918 springs, 270ahr cam, forged & dished SpeedPro pistons and a 100 shot of gas. Shooting for 350hp on the bottle.

Eat-Pez

07-08-08, 10:35 PM

One more question.

I'm going to put an electric van on this. Is there any way I can get the 2000 PCM to control the fan relay? I know the LS PCMs control the fan and turn the fan on when the AC comes on also. Can I get the program lines for fan control added to my PCM? If so, what pins would the fan control be put on? I don't mind adding the pins to the harness, I just need to know where to put them.

turbine guy

07-09-08, 12:15 AM

At this point, I would say, yes, the 2000 LSx VCM has capability to control e-fans. Poking around my '03 LS based VCM, (I have a mechanically driven fan.) I see that the lines for fan control are simply turned off. So for you, these should be as simple as clicking to enable, set temps, ect. Now which pins though.............I thought Rabid Bandit posted the pin out diagrams?

turbine guy

p.s. That Turbo-II is begging for a Cosmo 20B

Eat-Pez

07-11-08, 12:40 AM

p.s. That Turbo-II is begging for a Cosmo 20B

I had a friend with a 20B in a 10AE. It lasted about 2000 miles. Now it's got an LT1 in it.

Here's his car in a vid. He's Reese, the guy with the 20B in this vid. On his way back from DGRR (where this vid was shot), the engine popped....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YtHlp73FBY

rabidbandit

07-13-08, 11:01 AM

Yes....the pinouts are listed, just not on the ones I gave you...they say N/A or not used. Your can set the low/high temp cut-offs and A/C compressor enable....all very doable;) I'll dig up the pinouts for them...just a moment....
Left them in standard format for editing and printability, the schematic has the pinouts and connector designator (Pins 42-C1/33-C2) as well...yeah...I'm a nerd:D

Oh...forgot to add...these are for the Camaro/Firebird PCM's...(which is the same as the 2001 and later S-series/LS1 style PCM)...but configured for the V8.

Word Doc File:
5524
Excel File:
5523
Schematic:
5522

Zygoat

07-14-08, 07:06 PM

you rock!

Eat-Pez

07-14-08, 11:24 PM

Excellent. Thanks a ton.

On another note, we've been working on a big project for work (I run a small computer network installation biz) and we're wrapping up everything ahead of schedule. We should be getting home tomorrow night and will probably take a day off and sit on our ass. We should be yanking out the rotary on Thursday. I've got alot of parts waiting at the house, and we're hoping to be done in 10 days. We'll see. I've gotten an LS1 RX7 going down the road in 3 days before, so ... we'll see. I'm going to spend more time on the wiring on this one and also will be fabbing all the mounting equipment.

bespurcell

07-14-08, 11:26 PM

How long to put one in an s10? I'll volunteer mine if you don't already know how long it takes.

Eat-Pez

07-15-08, 08:37 AM

How long to put one in an s10? I'll volunteer mine if you don't already know how long it takes.

Shouldn't take too long considering you can use the same tranny and some $50 motor mount adapters from JTR. I'm putting a 5.3 in one of my Astros right now, but I'm taking my sweet time. The biggest problem I ran into with mine is that there is no engine harness and no chassis harness, under the hood, it's all loomed together. I spent 3 days sorting it out and pulling out the wires I need to leave in the chassis and wires that I WAS going to keep with my 4.3. I've got an LS1 long block with 0 miles on the rebuild for sale if you want to give it a go. I've got 2 LS2s as well, but I'll be using one of those.

One other request to all those with a 2000+ dime, on your alternator, unplug the wire that goes into the wiring harness and with the engine running, can you take a voltage reading and tell me what it is? I need a voltage reading on the red wire. Muchos Grassy Ass