4.3 Long Block

[93_deuce]

So I stopped by an auto shop today after work and the guy told me that my tick/knock had 2 sources. He said the first sounds like a lifter but the loud knock/rattle at higher rpm's could be the piston slapping the cylinder or main bearings or a rod.

He said to try GM Upper Engine Cleaner and see if it is a carbon deposit. Is this the same as GM Top End Cleaner?

I am going to try several things and pull the valve covers and drop the pan this weekend but I am looking into a new long block.

My question is where is the best place to get a 93 4.3 CPI Vin W long block?
I have searched online and found a couple but I was wondering what experience anyone else has had with these.

Thanks in advance!

[Cameo_S10]

Jasper or auto parts store.

[Majormotion53]

:welcome: So whats wrong with one of our local builders? Like Springfield Engine Supply(832-9232)They build good stock Long Blocks Or O'riely! I'm in the Ozark area.

[Bone Crusher]

If it was a bearing, I would drain the oil and see if there is any metal flake/shavings first then go from there on dropping the pan and pulling the valve covers

[93_deuce]

:welcome: So whats wrong with one of our local builders? Like Springfield Engine Supply(832-9232)They build good stock Long Blocks Or O'riely! I'm in the Ozark area.

I had no idea that places in town like that could do it. I didn't know Oreilly's made long blocks and I've never heard of Springfield Engine Supply. I appreciate the knowledge though and I'll look into it.

[93_deuce]

If it was a bearing, I would drain the oil and see if there is any metal flake/shavings first then go from there on dropping the pan and pulling the valve covers

Well I changed the oil this weekend because I had tried runnin seafoam and Marvel Oil and it looked good. There were no traces of metal in the oil and it wasn't burnt.

I bought this truck 3 weeks ago and it had no engine noise and it has gone from a noisy lifter sound to now having another deeper sound in the engine. I let a mechanic listen to it and he looked like it sounded bad:eek:!

I just can't imagine this engine going bad with only 77,000 on it and developing this type of engine noise over 3 weeks.

I plan on droppin the pan and pullin the valve covers this weekend.

Any other suggestions?:confused:

[Majormotion53]

How long was the truck setting or did you get it off a lot? Be in Springfield later.

[93_deuce]

How long was the truck setting or did you get it off a lot? Be in Springfield later.

Got it off a lot. A 55 year old guy sold it to the dealer and he got it from his dad. It's a '93 with only 76,235 when I found it so It hasn't been driven hard or often for a long time. I'm thinkin that may be some of the problem because this thing is clean.

I get off work around 5

[Majormotion53]

Send your Phone # in a Personal Message & I'll get back later to you got to go now.

[93_deuce]

I'll get a hold of you after I get off work. Got some GM Cleaner that I am gonna try and run through it

[hero dave]

if it was a rod knock you can run the engine and with each cylinder short it out using a test light to ground, if the noise goes away then its a rod knock on that cylinder, if it doesn't go away it might be a mian bearing. if it is a main bearing rotate the crankshaft BACKWARDS a few turns then start the have someone start the engine with your head around the near the front wheel (inline with them) if it doesn't knock on startup but starts to knock again in a few minites then its a main bearing. (by rotating the engine backwards it normally moves the bearing and "scraping" the knife edge back over the other way filling the void that causes the knock but since the bearing is compromised it will rotate back to where it was and start knocking again) but if the oil is clean with out metal you might want to take the filter off cut it open with a knife and look at the media...your filter might of captured it.

[SCredneck]

What kind of oil pressure does it have? Often a main bearing failure will be accompanied by a drop in oil pressure.

[hero dave]

oil pressure drop isn't a normal on spun mains... cause the bearing material gets into the sender passages a "traps" the pressure in the sender....cause that also pends on the location of the sender. if your up top near the dizzy then your right, if its near the filter then you might not be. the larger orific sender near the filter tends to trap material in a blow up and it leterally traps the pressure in the sender so the sender "thinks" it's got more pressure than it does. seems to only happen on the 3/8 pipe thread senders thought. seen a few that way and it seems to be on the s10 and the silverado's....few astro too. its not nearly as common as a rod though. I don't think its piston slap since it only has 78k on it. could be a timing chain against the cover. :?

[93_deuce]

My oil pressure seems to be the same as it was. Idles around 20-30 and maxes around 50-60 under load. Hard to tell with a digital gauge though:D


I don't think its piston slap since it only has 78k on it. could be a timing chain against the cover. :?

I have tried to pinpoint the noise and it is not the timing chain. I am almost positive that at least part of the noise is coming from the passenger side valve cover. There is another noise that develops when you hold a steady rpm and I am not sure what it is.:banghead_

My dad and I are going to pull the valve covers and possibly replace the lifters this weekend. We're then thinkin of droppin the pan and seein if there is anything wrong.

My question is can we replace rod bearings and main bearings through the pan? one or the other? Any other maintenance I should do why I'm in there?

[csl2006]

oil pressure should be around 40ish+ a little. At least on all my vehicles I ran with the correct amount of oil in it ran about 40-45psi. 20-30 sounds kinda low. Not terrible but deff. hope you find out whats wrong. Sucks especially with the weather we're having now aint it

[93_deuce]

oil pressure should be around 40ish+ a little. At least on all my vehicles I ran with the correct amount of oil in it ran about 40-45psi. 20-30 sounds kinda low.

When idling your pressure was 40-45? Mine is high around start up then fluctuates as I am driving depending upon load. If I come to a stop it sits at around 20 I would say and then goes up as soon as I hit the pedal. Is this normal?

The oil pressure is actin the same as it did the way I bought it so I guess I wouldn't know if it's messed up. Then again it is a digital gauge which blows ba**s!

And this weather Sucks!

[Majormotion53]

GM states 10 pounds for every 1000 RPM,after warm up is safe. And yes it should start high & fall to normal, on warm up to normal operating temp. Take my 98 Astro oil pressure starts around 50#s then drops to 20#s on warm up. Or my 98 Noma It starts at 75#s Then drops to 30#s on warm up. This depends on the shape each engine is in also .( ie bearings,&oil pump!)

[93_deuce]

This depends on the shape each engine is in also .( ie bearings,&oil pump!)

Well that brings us right back to the start of the whole thing!:D

Sorry I didn't get back to you yesterday - had some runnin around to do.

Like I said gonna pull the valve covers, replace lifters, drop the pan and replace the oil pump and screen.

Any thing I can do easily with the pan off? Rod bearings?:eek:

Thanks all - keep ya posted

[csl2006]

hmm odd my s10 and my ol camaro always started up around 50 then stayed at 40# at idel raises a little under heavy load.

[93_deuce]

Well like I said I dont' know what the oil pressure is supposed to be and it doesn't seemed to have changed any. Plus a digital gauge is the worst for reading things like this.

May have to install an aftermarket one

[hero dave]

if you rev it up and the knock stays then its a rod bearing! you can't just drop the pan and change a bearing....the surface of the crank is ruined, the crank isn't circular anymore, and any chance of a "good repair" is slim to none! the only fix for a bad bearing is a lower end rebuild...any repair that you try is going to be is a waste of your money (if its a rod) drop the pan and look for a discolored rod, that is where the problem is. if I was you I'd just pull the engine....

[Powerstroken]

I dont know if it would help you out now but you can have a sample of your oil tested and they can tell you wahts in it and if its any good? they can tell you what metals if any are there and where they came from. I am an Amsoil user and they offer it for like $15 including postage and report. Also i have had dealings with jasper rebuilds and I can say i do not reccomend them. We have had 3 jaspers engines and a freind with one and all 4 have failed. There warranty isnt as good as they say. 2 of our engines were in 1 ton trucks so that made them instantly commercial vehicles and a warranty of 12,000 miles. Only to have a cam fail well short of said 12,000 miles they shipped out a new cam (no lifters) and made us pay for the instal. I would not run a jasper engine in a lawnmower if it was given to me for free. Just my $.02. Jim

[93_deuce]

I dont know if it would help you out now but you can have a sample of your oil tested and they can tell you wahts in it and if its any good? they can tell you what metals if any are there and where they came from. I would not run a jasper engine in a lawnmower if it was given to me for free. Just my $.02. Jim

Thanks for the insight. I am looking into getting my oil tested and have found a couple options other than Jasper for a long block.

One more question guys! Do you have to remove the intake manifold when removing the valve covers to replace lifters? I read somewhere that you are supposed to do this and if so I need to purchase and intake manifold gasket along with my other parts.

Anyone else heard of having to do this?

EDIT:

Thanks for all the help. I am looking into buyin the intake manifold gasket set and it is showing 2 from O'reilly's. One for the upper and 2 for the lower. Do I need both of these?

I am also trying to figure out if I have "net lash" system or not. One post says it depends if you have a "T" or "R" stamped on the block but then it says that ALL Vortec engines are "net lash" and therefore non adjustable.

Does anyone know this for certain?

[Majormotion53]

Sounds like your dad has things under control. Yes you just as well get a complete gasket set, your going to use over two thirds of it anyways. You have to remove the intake so you can get to the lifters. Also you should take the motor out, to do the bottom end the proper way, and don't forget to replace seals as well. Call:couch2:, if you need. Good luck on the work.

[93_deuce]

and don't forget to replace seals as well.

Seals?

Thanks and I might be givin' u a call. No tellin what were gonna get into:D

[hero dave]

isn't your cam a roller?

[93_deuce]

isn't your cam a roller?

Yeah I am pretty sure. Why?

Also,

I'm reading my Haynes manual and 1 part says I can remove the oil pan with the motor in the truck and one says I can't!:eek:

Which is true? 93 4.3 Vin W 2WD

[hero dave]

your lifter WON"T tick or knock if they are rollers....they have a spider on it pushing down on them to stop them from rotating...flat tappets need to rotate to stop wear but rollers odviously arn't supposed to. when I worked for a local engine rebuilding place, before I finished my ASE, I worked teardown.... I don't think i've ever seen an engine that had roller lifter ever go flat or even wear out. now that i'v had many years of engine rebiulding and machining I know for a fact unless that the previous owner over- revved the engine would the the only way the rollers would of been hurt. and with that said you would have pushrods that are bent and rockers that are compromized. I hate to be the devil but I think your lifters would be a waste of your good money. rollers are cheap either. you need to drop your pan and look at the rods. sorry. as for the pan removal it can be done, cause iv'e done it....but the amount of time it took I should of just pulled it! even if you choose not to pull it but remove the pan you'll need the cherry picker anyway. both mounts need to be unbolted so the pan can clear the crossmember.

[93_deuce]

I bought a Chilton's manual and it says "The 4.3L (VIN W) engine and some of the 4.3L (VIN Z) engine are equipped with screw-in type rocker arm studs with positive stop shoulders. Because the shoulders allow the rocker arms to be torued into proper position, no adjustments are necessary or possible. If a valve train problem is suspected, check that the rocker arm nuts are tightened to 20 ft. lbs. When valve lash falls out of specification (valve tap is heard), replace the rocker arm, pushrod, and hydraulic lifter on the offending cyliner."

So I am assuming the "T" or "R" stamp would only apply to the Z engines. My dad and I removed the passenger side valve cover this weekend and made sure that the bolts were torqued down. I am unsure of what the difference would be (look wise) with adjustable and non adjustable valve lash systems because both have a nut on top. It appeared that mine weren't adjustable, as the book says, so we just torqued them. We ran the engine for a second with the valve cover off and each port appeared to be oiling properly.

It didn't seem to change the sound any, so I still think I have a collapsed lifter because 2 cans of seafoam and a can of GM Upper Engine and Fuel Injector cleaner have done nothing to fix the problem. My valve train appeared clean and did not have any sludge in it so I am not sure what the problem could be.

The more we listen to the sound (which I now think is 2 or 3 different ones) it seems like it is coming from the timing chain cover. However, there is no slack in the timing chain.

We also tried removing each spark plug wire, with the engine running and the "tick/knock" remained throughout the process. From the information I have recieved on here and other forums this rules out a rod bearing/lifter/valvetrain on one cylinder but leaves the possibility of a main bearing or timing chain.

Let me know what you guys think. My dad and I can hear the knock with a mechanic stethoscope on the timing chain cover, and the front bolts on each valve cover. If you put it on the lower intake manifold you can't hear it very well. This makes us wonder if it is internal or the timing chain because no matter what it could be it could be echoing through the block.

Sorry for the long post guys but this problem is driving me nuts and I don't want to dump a bunch of money and time into replacing lifters and timing chain ($144 for 12 lifters, $36 for upper/lower intake manifold gaskets and valve cover gaskets, 65 for timing chain and gears and $8 for timing chain gasket set) and it not fix the problem. If it is internal I am planning on driving till it goes and putting in a new long block.

Any thoughts?

[93_deuce]

if you rev it up and the knock stays then its a rod bearing!:eek:

Well we performed the test where you remove one spark plug wire from the distributor at a time and the sound remained constant throughout this. This is making me lean more and more toward a timing chain issue.

The sound is heard at startup (inconsistent rattle) for 2 seconds, then goes to a constant tick/knock at idle and then speeds up with engine speed. At around 2500 rpm it begins to change sound and became more erratic and scary sounding.

When I'm drivin down the road and let off after accelerating it rattles (very inconsistently and fast) for a few seconds.

The timing chain has no slack in it but could this be all it is?:confused:

[hero dave]

its scary sounding because the rod is getting ready to ventilate the block... its a rod. pull the pan off and check it. (best to pull the engine first)

[Jongo88]

its scary sounding because the rod is getting ready to ventilate the block... its a rod. pull the pan off and check it. (best to pull the engine first)
X2:( Or put some thick ass oil in it and sell it..

[spideyjected]

V8.

[93_deuce]

its scary sounding because the rod is getting ready to ventilate the block... its a rod. pull the pan off and check it. (best to pull the engine first)

If it is a rod then how come we couldn't isolate it by removing the spark plug wire from each cylinder at the distributor? I have heard many people talk about this and say this is how you determine which rod is bad.:hypnotize

Also, if it was a rod shouldn't I be able to hear it in the oil pan?

I am just wondering what to do here - thinkin of taking it by GM tomorrow and having them look it over and run diagnostics on it.

I do appreciate all the help, please keep it coming.

[93_deuce]

X2:( Or put some thick ass oil in it and sell it..


F that, I just bought the thing a month ago!:mad:

[Cameo_S10]

Doesn't sound too good.:(

[93_deuce]

Doesn't sound too good.:(

Yeah hopefully if nothing else GM can confirm that its a rod/timing chain/lifter/timing/detonation whatever the hell it is by doin diagnostics tomorrow.

I'll keep ya all posted

[hero dave]

if the rod is tooooooo out of round pulling the wire off won't make a difference. unfortunatly with everything is the way the pan may isolate the noise and that might be the reason why you cant here it in it. I have one more thing it might be, but I kind of dought it. the ring land might of broken and/or the ring is broken and it has made a groove in the cylinder, or has broken off and is hitting the cylinder head. the thing with both of them is.... you would have a miss if it was bad. other than the noise does it run ok? I hate to say it but I would think the rod is the best bet. :( you know, Jongo8 has a good idea on the oil....find you some cheap thick weight oil, drain the old, and put the thick weight (somewhere in the 80ish weight)oil in it. if you noise goes away then you found your problem....then you know that the engine needs to be pulled. its probably cheaper than having a GM mechanic at a dealer (or any shop) diagnose it. they would get $50+, thick oil is much cheaper than that! :) just remember that it is a diagnostic tool not to drive it...its not good on some of the other things like the oil pump or the lifter/valve train. if the noise is still there promply drain the oil, and fill it with the proper oil to finish diagnoistic checks.

[93_deuce]

So I took my truck by GM today to have them perform diagnostics, fuel pressure test, vaccum test, and to determine the noise. It didn't take the tech. long to call me back there and confirm that its a spun bearing and the noise is in the lower end. :eek: He said he was surprised because it only had 77,000 and has been taken care of but it only takes once runnin low on oil to ruin a motor.

To everyone on this site that told me this from the beginning, I apologize for not believing that it was a rod or main bearing. I guess I just had this optimism that there is no way it could develop this noise in a month. I paid $3,300 for this thing and now its probably gonna cost about the same for a replacement longblock and proffesional install.

So I am waiting for a quote from GM and trying to price long blocks from anywhere I can find.

I know I have asked this before but if anybody has any input on what would be the best company to obtain a long block from please post it on here. I am looking for the best and most covered warranty available as well as a competitive price. I'm probably not gonna have the money to upgrade with performance parts though!:mad:

If anyone has any idea how many labor hours a shop should charge for a remove and install of a new long block let me know. I was also wondering what everyone would reccommend replacing when I do this so I won't void the warranty and be in this spot again.

Thanks to everyone again!

Guess I'm gonna have to tag and transfer insurance to the 'Yota again:(

[hero dave]

I put a Moster transmission engine ina fullsize company truck 3 years ago....its probably the most abused truck on the earth and its still running strong... has 380k on the truck and over 230 on the engine. the web site is www.eatmyshift.com (http://www.eatmyshift.com) I cannot remember the warranty tho.

[93_deuce]

I put a Moster transmission engine ina fullsize company truck 3 years ago....its probably the most abused truck on the earth and its still running strong... has 380k on the truck and over 230 on the engine. the web site is www.eatmyshift.com (http://www.eatmyshift.com) I cannot remember the warranty tho.

Yeah I am looking into Powertorque, Hiperformer, and Monster engines. Power torque has a 3 year unlimited mileage warranty with full labor reinbursement, $100 towing, $150 rental, and $25 fluids for $1800.

I think I may do this and I have had three people quote me 12 hours for the install. GM said 22 hours:eek:! WTF?!

I was also wondering what I should be replacing since the motor is coming out. I am pretty sure I am going to replace the injector assembly, water pump, and the flexplate if it is cracked.

Anything else anyone would suggest?

[hero dave]

get the H.O version.... cant remember if it is the VIN Z or the VIN W.... think its the Z. if you want more power drop a v8 in it. tbi 350 is great for it. all the stuff works on it with the exception of the ecm and the exhaust. as long as you don't get radical. otherwise injectors will need changing. I think G.M is trying to cover their butts on it....i would say 12 -14 hrs. is more like it.... pending on the options

[Jongo88]

get the H.O version.... cant remember if it is the VIN Z or the VIN W.... think its the Z. if you want more power drop a v8 in it. tbi 350 is great for it. all the stuff works on it with the exception of the ecm and the exhaust. as long as you don't get radical. otherwise injectors will need changing. I think G.M is trying to cover their butts on it....i would say 12 -14 hrs. is more like it.... pending on the options
W is the ho

[93_deuce]

W is the ho

Yeah that's what i have the HO CPI vin W. I was just wondering what engine manufacturers anyone has had experience with

[hero dave]

I use to work for two engine rebuilding places here in Wichita....Remanufactured Engines of Derby and United Engine Specialists. I did engine install, and Block boring/honing, crank turning, rod reconditioning, and assembly. Reman engines of derby got into tax issues and is nolonger in business, but United is thriving....think you can get a carry out engine with a core for alittle under $900. it was something like $700 but parts costs went up. the warranty is only 1 year or 12K tho. BUT you can buy extended coverage

[hero dave]

of course I installed a monster engine in the full size airport truck....its still going strong....BTW airplane engines are easier to install than car/truck engine are. just lots more money and liability if it stops running. "can't pull over to a cloud and wait for the tow plane"

[93_deuce]

Just wanted to let you guys know that I do appreciate all of the opinions on this, I've just got my dad telling me that he would hate to rebuild it and then have something else go wrong, have no warranty, and then have to put a longblock in after spending all this money.

I am hoping to get a guy I know to lend me his garage and cherry picker so I can have a place to do all of this work. I'll keep you guys posted after I run some tests and will make a new post or pm some of you if I do decide to do the rebuild so I can make sure I follow all of the steps that are necessary.

Some of you have suggested the new crank,rod and main bearing kit from rock auto. Where would you suggest buying a rebuild kit from?

I have to pull the accessories this week to get my block number so I can make sure which motor I have and planning on running the vaccum and compression tests as well as pullin the upper intake to make sure my CIP isn't leaking.