Comp Mags Vs Pro Mags

[12sws27]

This thread is about 1.6 rockers on 96-99 heads only.
Mention any other size are year and I will curse at you with caps on and in bold letters! You are warned....

COMP Cams Magnum Steel Roller Tip Rockers vs. COMP Cams Pro Magnum Roller Rockers

Pic of Mags:
http://static.summitracing.com/global/images/prod/norm/cca-1418-12_w_m.jpg
Pic of ProMags:
http://static.summitracing.com/global/images/prod/norm/cca-1318-12_w_m.jpg
I've read the sticky on full roller rocker conversion. It talks about full rollers. Thats what the Pro mags are. I think 1318-12 is the PN# the majority uses when going to full rollers right? I read, those need poly locks which are to long for the stock valve covers on 96-99 4.3L's. Also according to the sticky there are no conversion studs for these year heads. That the ones that have the 10mm base and 3/8" top thread are to short for full rollers. What about if there not full roller and just roller tip?

What about the mags (PN# 1418-12)? What has to be done besides studs to run these on my 98? Shouldn't they just bolt on? Shouldn't they fit under my plastic valve covers? Shouldn't the conv. studs from ARP, that are supposedly to short for the ProMags work for the Mags since they're self-locking, don't require the need for polylocks and are just roller tips?

What is needed to be done to put these 1418-12's on my 98! :D

[Bone Crusher]

:pop2: Last nights conversation got the wheels turning huh? Hopefully someone can shine some light on the subject and really needs to be a sticky.

[12sws27]

:pop2: Last nights conversation got the wheels turning huh? Hopefully someone can shine some light on the subject and really needs to be a sticky.
Yeah it did. Now if I can just get every body else's wheels turning we can have a discussion. :)

[Danzcameo]

The mag's look factory like @ the fulcrom-like there stamped
The Pro's have needle bearings bet there a little more$$$$
Are the Pro's rebuildable?
I think even a roller tip rocker has to have some advantage over a stamped-less friction

[firefighter]

The 4.3L comes with roller fulcrum rockers (well 2nd gens) so basically all you would be doing is trading a roller tip for a roller fulcrum (which is a step backwards) so even though it is a less troublesome swap it is not worth it. What we need to do is get together and get someone to make spacers for the Valve Covers.

[firefighter]

Oh and Dan the ProMags are rebuildable.

[Danzcameo]

How much larger are those? just curious-quarter inch taller?

[12sws27]

The 4.3L comes with roller fulcrum rockers (well 2nd gens) so basically all you would be doing is trading a roller tip for a roller fulcrum (which is a step backwards) so even though it is a less troublesome swap it is not worth it. What we need to do is get together and get someone to make spacers for the Valve Covers.

I have to use the caps, bold letters and excamation marks on you Persio in order to keep my word. In away you kinda indirectly mention 00+ heads. Sorry. :D

NOPE! THAT'S ON 00+ HEADS! 96-99 ARE NOT ROLLER TRUION!(spelling?)

So just having roller tips is an upgrade. But thats not what I care about. It's the extra lift from a 1.6 arm that I'm after. Since most the gain is from the lift. I don't care to spend $300-$400 for maybe 10hp. Now $140-$200 for 8-10 hp I would. I've spent more for less.

[Danzcameo]

^^^^^HEHEHE^^^^:D FIXED.

[12sws27]

Oh! I just want to add. If I could just get plan stamped 1.6 rockers for even less than those roller tips I would. But I haven't found any. They gotta be out there some where. What would be idel for me is if I could just put stamped 1.6's on and not have to change studs are any thing. IDK enough about it though. So I don't even know if it's possible or if there are stamped 1.6 made that'll work.

[Mikz86TA]

I didnt read every post but here is my yake.

Stock 2000-up uses the roller trunion from the factory. Adding the roller tip is a benefit. So putting on the Pro's will be the best way to go.
Reverting to a stamped peice which is weaker by nature and having no roller trunion IMO will sacrifice gains.
The trunion area IMO has more to give in terms of negative friction than the tip which has less surface area of contact.
Which IMO is why GM opted to go that route which is more pricey.
In the aftermarket, they chose to put roller tips on the std basic cheap rockers as an upgrade that wont break the bank. Adding the trunion as a roller is where the big bucks come into play. Next step is the material in which the actual rocer is made. Aluminun, stainless or titanium.

[Mikz86TA]

Oh! I just want to add. If I could just get plan stamped 1.6 rockers for even less than those roller tips I would. But I haven't found any. They gotta be out there some where. What would be idel for me is if I could just put stamped 1.6's on and not have to change studs are any thing. IDK enough about it though. So I don't even know if it's possible or if there are stamped 1.6 made that'll work.

No matter what, they still need to be self-aligning (since no guide plates are used) and narrow body (since the centerbolt vortec heads require such).
If you look up LT1 or LT4 Rockers, you will find a wide selection. Thus since those motors use the S-A and N-B type rockers. In fact the LT4 (which was an LT1 with upgrades) had 1.6 S-A and N-B rockers. GMPP sold them and IIRC Crane was the maker of them for GMPP. I think they are the same as the Gold Race CraneCams model rocker.

[12sws27]

I didnt read every post but here is my yake.

Stock 2000-up uses the roller trunion from the factory. Adding the roller tip is a benefit. So putting on the Pro's will be the best way to go.
Reverting to a stamped peice which is weaker by nature and having no roller trunion IMO will sacrifice gains.
The trunion area IMO has more to give in terms of negative friction than the tip which has less surface area of contact.
Which IMO is why GM opted to go that route which is more pricey.
In the aftermarket, they chose to put roller tips on the std basic cheap rockers as an upgrade that wont break the bank. Adding the trunion as a roller is where the big bucks come into play. Next step is the material in which the actual rocer is made. Aluminun, stainless or titanium. EDITED FOR PERSIO: APPEARS YOU DIDN'T READ THE FIRST POST EITHER! THE HELL WITH 00+ HEADS!:p

Right. But the heads we're talking about is the 96-99 heads. They are not roller trunion. They're just stamp steel rockers. So on my 98 Jimmy I'm not going backwards with roller tips. I'm going forward.

[12sws27]

No matter what, they still need to be self-aligning (since no guide plates are used) and narrow body (since the centerbolt vortec heads require such).
If you look up LT1 or LT4 Rockers, you will find a wide selection. Thus since those motors use the S-A and N-B type rockers. In fact the LT4 (which was an LT1 with upgrades) had 1.6 S-A and N-B rockers. GMPP sold them and IIRC Crane was the maker of them for GMPP. I think they are the same as the Gold Race CraneCams model rocker.
So those can be used? I seen them at Summit for sale. Problem with those are they're $25 each. 25x12=300! Fuk that! Guess I could always find some used though.

[12sws27]

Is the need for the heads to be machined (for retainer clearance?) needed for 1.6 rockers, a 266, 270+ cam install, or the combination of both?

[firefighter]

Well eff you then Scotty. And why didn't Mike get the all CAP's BOLDFACE treatment he talked about the wrong year too.

I would just say go and get the right stuff even if you have to wait for the $$$$$ to me I'm not cracking a seal on the motor unless a cam is going in.

[12sws27]

Well eff you then Scotty. And why didn't Mike get the all CAP's BOLDFACE treatment he talked about the wrong year too.

I would just say go and get the right stuff even if you have to wait for the $$$$$ to me I'm not cracking a seal on the motor unless a cam is going in.
I felt so guilty after giving you the caps and bold typing.:( I couldn't bring myself to do it to him also. I'm a wimp. ;)

[firefighter]

Wash the sand out of yer Vagine. Go back and edit that chit.

[12sws27]

Wash the sand out of yer Vagine. Go back and edit that chit.
Edited post #8 for you. Feel better? I know I do. :D

So anyways. You guys think I could just get these studs, http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ARP-100-7201/

These rockers, http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-1418-12/ (or standard stamped steel 1.6, self-aligning rockers) and not have to do anything but bolt them on? Are will there be the need for springs or machining?

[Mikz86TA]

LMAO!!

[Danzcameo]

Well then I'm going back and editing my HAHAHA
to a HEHEHE-:)

[Bone Crusher]

LOL

[12sws27]

So anyways. You guys think I could just get these studs, http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ARP-100-7201/

These rockers, http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-1418-12/ (or standard stamped steel 1.6, self-aligning rockers) and not have to do anything but bolt them on? Are will there be the need for springs or machining?
I found self aligning stamped steel 1.6 rockers on eBay that use a 3/8 stud. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120443081508&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:Watchlink:middle:us
They are $85. They, like the CC Mags both use OEM style self-locking nuts. On the ARP conversion studs (ARP 100-7201), ARP says, "These rocker arm studs are designed to be used with Perma-Loc adjusters (not for use with OEM-style, self-locking nuts)."


So the answer to my own question is no. I can't just buy those studs (100-7201) and CC mags (1418-12) and just bolt them on. Same with stamped 1.6 rockers. I would need to use eitherARP 300-8241 - ARP Perma-Loc Rocker Arm Adjusters (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ARP-300-8241/) $58.95 OR COMP Cams 4604-16 - COMP Cams Rocker Arm Adjusting Nuts (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-4604-16/) $26.95.

There is another possible problem I hear. Some one replied to my question on another thread identical to this one on another forum. This is what he says,
"ANY 1.6 ratio rocker needs to be carefully checked for pushrod
contact with the "guide" hole in the cylinder head, closest
to the rocker stud.
the higher 1.6 ratio is achieved by moving the pushrod closer to
the fulcrum.
on SBC's and the 4.3"s, this can often lead to contact between the
pushrod and the head. grinding out the hole in the head
is the only solution if there is insufficient clearance or contact"....Crew Cab Sonoma @ S10F I wonder what the chances are? If I can what I need to put 1.6's on my Jimmy cheap enough I will give it a shot.

[firefighter]

You can get a "Louis" tool and do it yourself with a drill but I believe it needs to be off the motor.

[firefighter]

Here one of these things....

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/PRO-66485/


http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-4710/


I all ways knew these as a Louis tool.

[12sws27]

Yeah I would diffenatly do it myself. But I won't do it with the heads on and I ain't taking the heads off unless I have to. But if I got the parts cheap enough I would put them on and see if I get lucky. If not, they'll either get sold or sit in the closet till I have to remove the heads.

[87wildside]

e mail comp cams. :) Maybe they know what you need to do to bolt them on...

[12sws27]

That would be to easy....:D

[87wildside]

I emailed them for you.

[87wildside]

If you a 10mm stud you will need 1414-12 instead of the 1418-12 but id you
have a 3/8 stud you can use the 1418-12 with no machining because those
rockers are self-aligning and will work with your stock studs

Thanks
Buggy
Hope that helps....lol. Think KV typed that....

[12sws27]

Well sh!t! Why didn't I see those before. Those are the ones Boostedthrills uses I bet. He said he had a set he was running and that they were from a 2.8. I thought he was talking about the studs being from a 2.8. Guess I can get 1.6's for less than $150 after all.

Weird that when I searched for rockers by entering 10mm studs nothing popped up at Summit. I entered the part number and bingo! There they were. Guess this is gonna be a future upgrade. I think I'll either do water/meth injection or a marine intake first though.

[12sws27]

Well sh!t! Why didn't I see those before. Those are the ones Boostedthrills uses I bet. He said he had a set he was running and that they were from a 2.8. I thought he was talking about the studs being from a 2.8. Guess I can get 1.6's for less than $150 after all.

Weird that we I searched for rocker by entering 100m studs nothing popped up at Summit though. I entered the part number and bingo! There they were. Guess this is gonna be a future upgrade. I thing I'll either do water/meth injection or a marine intake first though.
Scratch all that I said above. Those 1414-12 are not self-aligning. Damn it ! And I thought it was gonna be that damn simple for a minute.

[trusconi]

Weird that we I searched for rocker by entering 100m studs nothing popped up at Summit though.

that's your problem 100m is longer than your truck!

[neo71665]

Scratch all that I said above. Those 1414-12 are not self-aligning. Damn it and I though it was gonna be that damn simple for a minute.


Use guys with 60 degree motors use guide plates so we can't use the self aligning ones. About the only thing in common with the 90 degree ones is we also have to use the narrow body ones.

[jgx421]

Great thread. Any new info on this?

[12sws27]

Great thread. Any new info on this?
This is my understanding. On 96-99 4.3L heads you can use those 1.6 roller tipped Mags with the conversion studs, the OEM type self locking nuts and they will fit under the stock plastic valve covers. But, you might have a problem with pushrod clearance. Another thing I never found out was about the ARP studs 100-7201. Those will work with the non roller fulcrum Mags but might be to short for full rollers. On the summit site they also say that you need to use poly locks when using those studs and are not designed to be used with OEM type self locking nuts. I haven't found any other studs that are 10mm on the bottom and 3/8" on the top.

Boostedthrills, a guy on another forum says he uses them with no problems. But he said he has Crower studs (10mm bottom and 3/8" top made for 2.8L). I haven't been able to find those.

Here are a couple of links the the same thread I posted on other forums.

http://www.s-seriesforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=85598

http://www.s10forum.com/forum/f107/comp-mags-vs-pro-mags-408867/

[jgx421]

I emailed ARP friday to see if they manufactured( or could manufacture)the conversion studs like the 60 degree v6 with an extra 3/8" length. By my understanding these would work with the 1.6 rollers perfectly with no further mods needed. I'm expecting a response within the next few days. I'll share the info as soon as I hear something.

[12sws27]

I emailed ARP friday to see if they manufactured( or could manufacture)the conversion studs like the 60 degree v6 with an extra 3/8" length. By my understanding these would work with the 1.6 rollers perfectly with no further mods needed. I'm expecting a response within the next few days. I'll share the info as soon as I hear something.
That would be cool if they did make some. But they only need to be 3/8 longer if you're going with full roller rockers. Same length as stock is fine with stamped steal or just roller tipped rockers.

[jgx421]

That would be cool if they did make some. But they only need to be 3/8 longer if you're going with full roller rockers. Same length as stock is fine with stamped steal or just roller tipped rockers.


So then the Lt4 1.6s would work fine if we could get ARP to make these studs.

I was reading one of the responses to your thread on the other sites and noticed that someone mentioned the 1.6 rockers that SLP used to offer for 4.3s. I remember seeing these advertised in Sport Truck some years ago. Are these still available? My searching has come up unsuccessful.

[12sws27]

So then the Lt4 1.6s would work fine if we could get ARP to make these studs. IDK anything about LT4 rockers.


I was reading one of the responses to your thread on the other sites and noticed that someone mentioned the 1.6 rockers that SLP used to offer for 4.3s. I remember seeing these advertised in Sport Truck some years ago. Are these still available? My searching has come up unsuccessful.
No there not.



The pn# for the Crower studs BoostedThrillz said he used is CRO-88419-12. Summit has them. Damn things are almost twice the price as ARP's 100-7201 studs. I can't find any info about the Crower studs either other then there 10mm bottom, 3/8" top.