say what?!?!?!!?

[extreme gmc]

http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/invest/extra/P112987.asp?GT1=6301
say it aint so...
Charlie

[OBI WAN]

Cant say I dont blame thing. With todays amount of manufacturers out there its hard to keep multiple lines of vehicles open that come from the same platforms etc. Actually GM probably should drop all the lines and just call it GM. Pool all the resources and talents into making one GM lineup that covers everything instead of this seperation thing which was really like racism to a degree. Chevrolet was for poor people, Olds and Buick for the older with more money, Pontaic for excitement and refinement and Caddies for the Criminals and Snobs!! Thats how it actually was not to many years ago before the Europeans and Asian cars came!

[Supercharged-ZQ8]

GM's biggest problem is that they're too full of themselves. They design crappy new vehicles to replace top-selling older models and then they price them so high that people would rather go to other manufacturers that KNOW how to treat their customers.

Let's see: base model Cavalier could be had for around $10-$11K -- now it's the Cobalt for $13-$14K. Base model S-Series could be had for $12K -- Colorado for around $15K. Poor designs, high prices, what is there to promote brand loyalty?

As far as my next truck, it'll probably be a Ranger. Why? I wouldn't buy a Colorado unless a few MAJOR details were changed and the price was more competitive. Full-size? No -- too overpriced. I can get a LOADED F-150 for about $6K cheaper than a Silverado.

[blazen]

if they do kill one of them off it better be buick, i like pontiac. actually i heard awhile ago that they were getting rid of buick.

zq8 say it aint so a ranger why why? j/k i dont think i would a colarado either but they have been growing on me. but i still say bring back the s10. it seems like there just trying to make the trucks bigger and bigger which is fine for the full size 3500 but keep the smaller size trucks small. they basically got rid of there compact trucks and now just have mid size and full size. the s10 was a good work truck the perfect sport truck and the perfect truck for an everyday driver.

sorry to change from the pontiac/buick subject

[ZR1-S10]

Buick has the same problum as olds, but I like Pontiac. I've heard that Saturn and Saeb are the real losers in GM's lineup. I'd give Buick and Pontiac more time to improve.

[Maximus]

If they drop Pontiac that's it im gone!!!Not really but it sounded good lol.I have thought for a long time that GM has WAY to many vehicle brands on the same platform.If they would cut a lot of the fat away and devote that money in to one vehicles design and refinement we would get more for our money.I hate to say it to you union members but they are what's killing the the North American car and trucks.Yes at one time the UAW was a needed representation to fight for a fair wage and benefits package.Now it's just crazy stupid how much they drain the car makers.Im sorry but some dumb **** doing a job a 3rd grader can do shouldn't get paid $20 a hour to do it.They are just leaches anymore that cause all of us to pay to much for our rides.The Toyota plant here in KY is a non union factory and the workers there wanna keep it that way.Toyota takes care of them with a "fair" wage and benefits plan that keeps them and Toyota happy.Look were it's got Toyota.The UAW is a corrupt greedy ass organization that will continue to cause us to pay higher prices for our cars.But back to the topic at hand.I say drop Buick.They really have not put out anything worth a hoot in a long time.Todays Buicks are so boring and plain I can't tell the difference in their 2005 from their 95's.I agree with OBI,do away with all the seperate brands and combine them in to one single branch called GM for cars and GMC for trucks.Since GMC was the first truck made under General Motors name anyway " formerly the Rapid Motor Vehicle Company".I bet ya quality would go up and the designs would be more cutting edge and a industry leader.Just think they would have one very LARGE budget to design and build one car or truck.That's just my two cents on the matter and I own a Pontiac.

[blazen]

anyone ever go on gm's web site and check out some of the cars they sell over in europe and stuff. they got some decent cars. there's a little 2 seater roadster thats decent.

[ZR1-S10]

Yeah I've seen them. If they drop another name the they should make up for it by inporting Opel and Vaxxhul models.

[Supercharged-ZQ8]

If they drop Pontiac that's it im gone!!!Not really but it sounded good lol.I have thought for a long time that GM has WAY to many vehicle brands on the same platform.If they would cut a lot of the fat away and devote that money in to one vehicles design and refinement we would get more for our money.I hate to say it to you union members but they are what's killing the the North American car and trucks.Yes at one time the UAW was a needed representation to fight for a fair wage and benefits package.Now it's just crazy stupid how much they drain the car makers.Im sorry but some dumb **** doing a job a 3rd grader can do shouldn't get paid $20 a hour to do it.They are just leaches anymore that cause all of us to pay to much for our rides.The Toyota plant here in KY is a non union factory and the workers there wanna keep it that way.Toyota takes care of them with a "fair" wage and benefits plan that keeps them and Toyota happy.Look were it's got Toyota.The UAW is a corrupt greedy ass organization that will continue to cause us to pay higher prices for our cars.But back to the topic at hand.I say drop Buick.They really have not put out anything worth a hoot in a long time.Todays Buicks are so boring and plain I can't tell the difference in their 2005 from their 95's.I agree with OBI,do away with all the seperate brands and combine them in to one single branch called GM for cars and GMC for trucks.Since GMC was the first truck made under General Motors name anyway " formerly the Rapid Motor Vehicle Company".I bet ya quality would go up and the designs would be more cutting edge and a industry leader.Just think they would have one very LARGE budget to design and build one car or truck.That's just my two cents on the matter and I own a Pontiac.
True -- unions started out to protect workers' rights, wages and benefits, but have become a cash cow that impacts the wallets of the American people (and no one else). I support the unions, IF they do what they were originally created to do -- and only then. But, of course, that isn't the case.

Buicks ARE boring -- no doubt about that. Could a vehicle line be any MORE boring? I doubt it.

The problem with just having a unified GM and a GMC is that there is no exclusivity. Ford has a number of brands: Ford, Lincoln and Mercury (that everyone knows about) -- but they also have Land Rover, Jaguar and Volvo (which a lot of people DON'T know about), and they still have huge sales figures. The problem isn't that the vehicles are boring or anything like that -- the problem is that GM CHARGES TOO MUCH. As I said before, a nicely-equipped F-150 can be gotten for about $5-$6K less than a similarly equipped Silverado or Sierra. Of course, I'm no GM executive, but the way I see it, what they ought to do is to keep the Chevrolet, Pontiac and Cadillac brands and get rid of the rest. Why do they need to call Holdens "Holdens" -- why not Chevy of Australia? Or Opel (which is where most of the Saturn designs are coming from) -- why not Chevrolet of Europe? Saab? Again, why not combine it with Opel and call them both Chevrolet of Europe?

Why? Because GM execs are MORONS. These are the same bozos that make the "poor man's sports car" so highly priced that no one that wants one can afford it, and that anyone that CAN afford one would rather have something else (I'm refering to the F-Bodies). I mean the F-Bodies were originally meant to compete with the Mustang -- but GM lost ALL perspective. A Mustang GT can be had for right around $25K -- if the Camaro SS were still made, you couldn't get one for less than $30K! And GM wonders why sales sucked for the last years of the F-Body! A base coupe Mustang can be bought for under $20K -- a base-model Camaro (with a V6) was over $25K. Seeing a pattern here? Look at the Colorado. I know, I keep harping about them, but it proves my point. A base model S-10 could be purchased for about $12-$13K, but the Colorado starts at around $15K. Fully-loaded ZR5 S-10 cost right around $26K -- a fully-loaded Colorado is up pretty close to $30K -- and they STILL don't have a motor that can compete with the other mini or mid-size trucks on the market.

I mean the Ranger is still in a good price range (they have ALWAYS been less expensive than a comparable GM model) and they have a good high-end engine (4.0L V6 -- 200 hp). And Dodge, as much as I can't stand Dodges, has a 5.9L V8 available. What does GM offer? An I5! Fine, it may have more hp and a more even power curve, but a lot of people are like me and don't want some oddball engine -- we want something that we KNOW. The only other I5 engines that I've ever seen were in the VW Eurovan and some of the Audis -- and those were JUNK engines. And the looks? I've never been keen on the Dodge Dakotas, but even those are better looking than the Colorados. If you put a Colorado and a new Tacoma side-by-side, you'd notice that (with the exception of the grilles and headlights) they look almost identical. Of course, the Tacomas still have REAL engines -- V6-powered (245 hp out of a 4.0L), with an optional supercharged V6. And how much does that Tacoma cost? Most of the models I've seen are less than $25K! Mind you, I can't stand Toyotas, but I'd buy a Tacoma before I bought a Colorado -- they look better, have better engines, have an available 6-speed and cost less!

No wonder GM is losing its ASS! Oh, sure, there's the GTO -- but it's the same as the Camaro and Firebird: it's priced WAY beyond what anyone that WANTS one can actually AFFORD! Would it be possible to get a RWD V8 6-speed for under $20K? Not according to GM! But, that is the market for them: people that don't want leather and power everything, but want to go fast and handle well. Of course, then the insurance companies get thrown into the mix. . .

I'm about DONE with GM. They're a bunch of money-hungry morons that make one bad decision after another. Sure, they've got some engineering geniuses, but if someone can't afford all that engineering prowess, what good does it do?

Let's see here. . . GM's recent STUPID decisions:

F-Bodies -- overpriced and not selling BECAUSE they're overpriced. GONE.

S-Series -- long-in-the-tooth design, but VERY high customer loyalty and high sales figures. GONE -- we get an overpriced, underpowered, UGLY warmed-over Toyota!

Full-size trucks -- overpriced and not selling anywhere NEAR as many units as Ford. Why? OVERPRICED. What does Ford offer as far as a "sport truck?" The 5.4L supercharged, standard cab Lightning. What does GM offer? A N/A 6.0L EXTENDED CAB SS. Sorry, but it's just NOT an SS. Bring back the 454SS trucks! THOSE were sport trucks! (Underpowered, but considering the time they were in production, they weren't bad.)

Blazers -- Gone because of the "stigma" of the S-Series. One of the TOP-SELLING SUVs around (not as many as the Explorer, but pretty close). Last years were offered ONLY in 2-door, which is a very limited market. GONE. Replaced by the Trailblazer, which is very nice, but too big and OVERPRICED. Or by the Equinox, which is SMALLER but costs the same and doesn't have the range of options the Blazer/Jimmy/Bravada did. And no 2-doors available anymore. Limited audience, but necessary.

Astros -- GONE. Same basic platform as the S-Series trucks and SUVs. Replaced by the OVERPRICED Venture or the ugly, OVERPRICED, and confusing Uplander.

SSR -- a limited market, but a disappointing vehicle. Underpowered, OVERPRICED, and an absolute failure. With the 390 hp 6.0L and optional 6-speed, they're still overpriced and need a lot of work to be appealing.

HHR -- oh my GODS! Do we REALLY need another PT Loser? A retro-looking car based on a compact car platform! Gee, that's original. Probably OVERPRICED too!

Cavalier -- one of the most popular compact cars. Almost anyone could afford one and they were decent looking and available in a lot of varieties, with a sport model available. GONE as of the next year or so. Instead, the Cobalt is its replacement. A nice looking car, to say the least, but OVERPRICED! Of course, the Supercharged SS is step in the right direction, but guess what? It's OVERPRICED!

Impala -- OVERPRICED, but a nice car. Boring as all hell -- oh, wow, ANOTHER GM FWD V6. In 2006 it's supposed to get a 5.3L V8, but it'll probably be FWD (pointless) and OVERPRICED.

Monte Carlo -- hasn't been a REAL Monte Carlo since 1987 -- the last of the G-Bodies. They should have kept it the Lumina, instead of killing the Monte Carlo name. They look VERY nice (I like the new bodies of the MCs), but another boring FWD V6. As with the Impala, in 2006 they're supposed to get a 5.3L SS model, but it will also probably be a FWD and therefore pointless.

The only interesting cars GM has come up with lately are the Solstice and Sky. RWD roadster. Look good, have a slight amount of power, and handle well -- but will be a VERY limited market and therefore probably not sell very well (and, guess what, will be cut due to "disappointing sales figures." Imagine that!

GM needs to pull their heads out of their asses and actually TALK TO THE BUYING PUBLIC, and nto use some research firm that has no grip on reality. Ask the dealerships what sells and what doesn't. Ask the customers (through buyer surveys and whatnot -- which they've done only occasionally) what they like/dislike about the GM line.

Of course, will GM do any of these things? Probably not. Nope -- they'll keep doing business as they have been. They'll waste BILLIONS of dollars designing and producing FLOPS, charging too much for them, and then cancelling production of them because they aren't selling. I have a good relationship with a few of the Chevy dealerships in town -- even the sales personnel say what I've just said. The number one truck-selling dealership around here can't move Colorados, and almost all of the salespeople have said the same thing: "I wish they'd bring the S-10s back. . . At least those SOLD! We can't get rid of these new Colorados." Sure, a few of them have sold, but not nearly as many per year as the S-Series. But will GM do anything about it? Yeah, cancel the truck and bring out another one that's even uglier and MORE expensive.

My 5 year-old could do a better job running GM than the morons they've got on staff now. Hell, my 2 year-old probably could! I know I certainly could!

OK -- sorry for the rant, but GM just annoys the HELL out of me! I used to be a Ford guy a LONG time ago. I will probably be going back, with the GM is making decisions lately. Oh, and did I mention that most of their vehicles are OVERPRICED? Just checking!

Again, sorry for the rant, but it amazes me how a company as big as GM can be so STUPID!

[Sparky2263]

True -- unions started out to protect workers' rights, wages and benefits, but have become a cash cow that impacts the wallets of the American people (and no one else). I support the unions, IF they do what they were originally created to do -- and only then. But, of course, that isn't the case.


Again, sorry for the rant, but it amazes me how a company as big as GM can be so STUPID!


Well said.