Wynjammer / SC questions

[Mikz86TA]

Got a few inquiries maybe I could get answered. They primarily are about the Wynjammer but could be answered thru other SC experiences.

First off has to do with the pulley. A Jammer runs off the belt like all sc's. However unlike most kits that use a piggyback pulley inside the stock crank pulley, the Jammer has its cog belt off of a independent pulley that is driven from the serpentine belt. The serpentine is different ( I assume longer) than the stock one. So why cant you still run an underdrive crank? Obviously on other sc's, you cant due to the sc's piggyback pulley in the stock crank pulley. Wouldnt the underdrive which causes less lag and faster spinup of the engine just allow the jammer to spin up faster?

Next is plugs used. I know step down to the next colder plug. I currently run NGK TR55 (IIRC). Is TR45 the colder one? What do you guys with jammers or sc's use?

Then I ask about the upgraded fuel spider Al has. Soo hard to swallow stepping back to poppets from my 2003 mini injectors which cured the poppet problem. But it must be done. I read some guys who had the stock ones (19lbs right?) with the jammer and later swapped for the Al poppet kit (36lbs right?) say they had much improved higher RPMs. Shouldnt that account for more HP?
Seen this written from someone who dynoed'. 190HP stock and dynoed 144HP at the wheels. After Jammer did 220HP at the wheels. But what if the 36lb inj swap was done? More HP?
Ive seen a guy claim 250 with alky inj, cam, overbore and 9psi.
Seen another claim 263 with 270cam, head work, headers, true duals, dyno tune and som eother stuff.

So would the 36lb injector setup be ok to swap into a non-sc'd motor for now? Would the PCM not like that? Would it hurt the motor or make it run bad? Or could that help the motor now also before an sc?

I heard you can get Al to send you a new pulley for the Jammer to make it a 9psi. What is needed for that other than the pulley? Would the PCM have to be retuned for the 9psi setup, is the 36lb injector absolutely nesseeary when doing the 9psi, etc?

[Mikz86TA]

Oh and how legit is this claim?
Read from a couple guys that a motor naturally has like 14psi in the cylinder. So you add the 6psi and you are more like running 20psi. So its misleading thinking that 6psi is weak.
Any truth to that?

I can find and copy the mathmatecal formula they posted if I can find it again. It was on a FS Truck forum after a google search I did on the Jammer

[Dogsofjune]

Underdrives change your pulley ratio. You would lose some "boost".

Usually most do go a heat range cooler, keep in mind no more platinum plugs. They are a hardy plug for N/A, but boost beats them up. You either need coppers or iridium. Your best performance gains will be from copper.

More fuel means more power, if tuned correctly. Would the 36# inj work on a N/A motor. Sure.
Al gets by without the use of an FMU by keeping the boost low. After seeing the tune for this, I'm not so sure it is the best route, but it seems to work. Upping it to 9psi and not properly fueling it will amplify the questionable tactics used.

To go to 9psi is as simple as swapping pully's, and compensating for the additional CFM of air.


It may be difficult to ponder going with a poppet style, but they did work and they do have some longevity. Proper maintenance is key.

[Dogsofjune]

Oh and how legit is this claim?
Read from a couple guys that a motor naturally has like 14psi in the cylinder. So you add the 6psi and you are more like running 20psi. So its misleading thinking that 6psi is weak.
Any truth to that?

I can find and copy the mathmatecal formula they posted if I can find it again. It was on a FS Truck forum after a google search I did on the Jammer

They are referring to atmospheric pressure, but it's not boost. Vacuum under WOT would go to 0, but not beyond. Keep in mind elevation changes geographically. You usually see this referred to as bar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_%28unit%29).

1 bar = 100 kPa (kilopascals) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal_%28unit%29) = 1,000,000 dynes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyne) per square centimeter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centimeter) (baryes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barye)) = 0.987 atm (atmospheres (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphere_%28unit%29)) = 14.5038 psi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pounds_per_square_inch) = 29.53 inHg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inches_of_Mercury)

[Mikz86TA]

Underdrives change your pulley ratio. You would lose some "boost".

Usually most do go a heat range cooler, keep in mind no more platinum plugs. They are a hardy plug for N/A, but boost beats them up. You either need coppers or iridium. Your best performance gains will be from copper.

More fuel means more power, if tuned correctly. Would the 36# inj work on a N/A motor. Sure.
Al gets by without the use of an FMU by keeping the boost low. After seeing the tune for this, I'm not so sure it is the best route, but it seems to work. Upping it to 9psi and not properly fueling it will amplify the questionable tactics used.

To go to 9psi is as simple as swapping pully's, and compensating for the additional CFM of air.


It may be difficult to ponder going with a poppet style, but they did work and they do have some longevity. Proper maintenance is key.

Copper it is. Are the V-Powers copper? I must do some research.
So the 9psi comment. So as long as I have the 36lb injector and tune, the pulley to do the 9psi fro Al would be a bolt on and go?
What do you mean by Als tune and no FMU? Are you doubting the reliability or something with a basic Jammer kit?

[12sws27]

After seeing my A/F ratios on on my Jimmy@6psi with the stock (23lb/hr) injectors, you having the newer MPI and having to down grade to poppets and the fact that you are already thinking about 9psi I say forget about the 36lb poppets.

When I data logged mine the other day I seen a/f ratios spikes in the 16s in the higher rpm range... There's a possibility it could be old parts. I'm pretty sure my entire fuel system has never been changed and has 120k miles on it. Still, my a/f ratios average in the high 13's at higher rpms.Get even in the 14s often. I'm also getting knock retard and my injector duty cycle gets all the way up to 123% some times. So with more fuel I can definitely get more power because I can add more timing and get less knock retard.

Yeah, you'll have to lose the underdrive pulleys. After you're boosted you won't mind. If you don't have your stock ones I could help you out with that.

The plugs I'm using are copper and are 1 heat range cooler. They are NGK V-Power TR6 4177. They're nice and cheap too. :) I got mine gapped to .040.

FWIW, I data log my stock Blazer at WOT and the injector duty cycle on it got up to 85% So it seems 23lb/hr injectors are just right for a stock 4.3. I say stock is 23lb/hr because that's what hptuners shows they are. IDK where the 19lb/hr came from but I think I remember some one saying the newer MPI upgraded GM spider is 19lb/hr but work better then the old poppets style because they're more efficient....IDK though. Just something I read.

With what I know now, if I were planing on getting set up to run 6psi. I think I would probably start out by getting a marine intake and/or water/meth injection. If you are going to stay with 6psi for awhile I bet water/meth would be your best/cheapest bet. I kinda wish I would of bought a water/meth kit a long time ago. Way before I bought all this other stuff. I would also entertain the idea of getting tunning software one day. With PCMforless everytime you need an update tune it's gonna cost you $65 shipped.

The Bosch injectors in the marine intake are rated at 24lb/hr at 43.5psi. The marine intakes fuel pressure is like 58psi. So they are more like 26lb/hr. With that your truck would be drivable while you wait to get a tune. It will just run a little rich and your gas mileage will suffer a bit.

Also, FYI. The pulleys for the jammer to up the boost are $225+shipping.

[Dogsofjune]

Your tune may say 23#, but that's not what's in there. You never got to look at your stock tune did ya?

[em98ss]

I don't know how much relevance this has, but Al gave me a Champion Plug # I crossed it over at the store, to a NGK V Power, but its been so stinking long, I can't remember the dang #
But I haven't had any issues or problems.

I don't want to get way off base here, but I need a little help with the muffler.

This conversation is way over my head, but my question is what's a good muffler to let it breath better?
I was told I really didn't need headers, because the stock manifolds are good up to around 300 hp, I don't know how much truth there is to that, but I think a 2" outlet is really restricting the flow.

I apologize I don't mean to get of track here, but I would like some expert advise while the subject is on the Supercharger.

[Mikz86TA]

Well, word is the best free flowing muffler is the Hooker MaxFlow (i thnk thats the name of it). I would also look into getting the y-pipe made for it with 2.25" primaries into a 2.5 or 3". Even with stock manifolds, that made my truck run stronger in the upper RPM band.

So prob it would be best to get the PCM tuned per Al's specs, upgrade the injectors (the Al spider for now and Marine later) and then get a local dyno tune to fine it. Seems like a logical way to me

[rentedmule]

The champion # is R43 something - I ran R42's for a while but they were too cold and were fouling pretty quickly. I run TR6ix now, the same as the ones Scott has but in iridium. I left them in after I took the S/C off because I often hold my truck on the rev limiter and I figured they couldn't hurt! The dynomax ultraflow that I have is pretty close to the hooker flow-wise, it's a straight-through design but it's pretty quiet in comparison.

I personally don't think I would run a wynjammer without some sort of fuel upgrade. Every time I see the A/F ratios on a stock setup it really scares me. If you don't want to swap to poppets you can always use extra injectors, they're easy to set up and they also cool the intake charge the same way methanol does. You can get a bolt on kit from blowerworks (the super fueler)

http://www.blowerworks.net/

They're sketchy at high boost levels (20+) but will be more than enough for 9 psi. I think meyers on the other forum showed that they starved some of the cylinders a bit but he ran 25 psi on a stock motor for thousands of miles so I think they work pretty damn well!

220 rwhp is normal for a truck with a wynjammer and the typical tune and exhaust mods. That's 60-65 rwhp better than most stock trucks and torque will easily be over 300 ft/lbs at the crank. I think 30 hp more at 9psi with lots of fuel would be easy. The engine feels totally different when you have enough fuel to add back an appropriate amount of timing. With timing pulled to prevent knock it feels choked somehow and it isn't very responsive.

[Dogsofjune]

Scott's track times seem to suggest 220ish rwhp. With such a high duty cycle and leaning out, that would scare me as well. It also confirms that the 19#'s are stressed.

I would recommend the 36# inj or the extra injector setup for certain with 9psi.

[Mikz86TA]

But gains over the stock injectors and just running 6si are probably relevent esp in the higher RPM right? Seems that the fueling in the upper RPM band is where this feuling setup suffers.
Tho I have never seen any dyno on a stock motor.
I do know on my buddys GTO (with only cat-back exh) that it was pig rich on the upper RPM. They actually got more power leaning that 6.0L out on the upper end. With mods and tune went from 344RWHP to 39x somethingRWHP.

Thinking just eating the PCMforLess tune payment and getting that as a start. I dont know if Al has a seperate tune for (with upgrade injector power pkg and one without upgrade injector power pkg).
Then later on getting the guy here with HPT and Dyno to do some fine tuning.
Dyno Tunes arent cheap tho :(

[rentedmule]

With just a dyno tune (no FMU) I couldn't go over ~4000 rpms when I was running 9+ psi on the powerdyne.

I would guess you'd gain substantial power with new injectors at 6 psi too but I don't know how much - maybe 10-15 at the crank depending on how lean it is with the stock setup? Being able to add timing in over a range of RPMs makes it feel a lot faster in general though, even if peak HP doesn't go up that much.

Mail order tunes also scare me a bit but they're definitely better than nothing.

[Mikz86TA]

Yeah. Got to startwith something tho. Any custom tune is scary if the azzhole tuning it has no clue. Gonna ask around a bit more B4 I do that anyways

[12sws27]

Your tune may say 23#, but that's not what's in there. You never got to look at your stock tune did ya?

Yeah I did. My stock Blazer with the GM stock tune has the same injector info. Both have the poppets. Both say 23. something lb/hr.

[12sws27]

IDK if you're planning on getting a jammer new or used. If you get it new the tune will be included whether you get the 36lb/hr spider or not. The best time to get all the "upgrades Al has like the better belt, aluminum bonnet and injectors is probably when you buy a new kit. I think you get a discount like that IIRC.

I still say just do the marine intake first. I got everything I need for it now and it cost me about what that 36lb/hr spider does. Except I have Ford Racing 39lb injectors which are rated at 39.15 psi. At the 58-60 psi pressure the marine intake is regulated at that like 47lb/hr injectors. I definitely have room for more power.:)

If you just want the Jammer kit now and want to be safe, water/meth is the cheapest bet. You can tune for it later when you get a dyno tune to get more out of it.

[Mikz86TA]

Would be used kit, with 36lb inj spider, with hp bonnet, with hi-tq belt, with newer prvalve, etc.
PCM would have to be tuned for my truck but the PCM is from a 2004 so it is the same PCM for my 2003.

[12sws27]

Would be used kit, with 36lb inj spider, with hp bonnet, with hi-tq belt, with newer prvalve, etc.
PCM would have to be tuned for my truck but the PCM is from a 2004 so it is the same PCM for my 2003.

Ok, so you're still considering that guys kit. Cool! You get him to go down on the price yet?

[Mikz86TA]

Does $1000 sound good?

[Bone Crusher]

Heck yeah....do it and do it now!

[s106banger]

why are you even thinking about it?!

[Mikz86TA]

LOL. Its more than $1000. I was just kidding

[TreasonAgainstCaesar]

Underdrives change your pulley ratio. You would lose some "boost".

Couldn't you then use a smaller s/c pulley and gain that boost back?

[Dogsofjune]

Honestly? Yes.
If you spend the money for a larger pulley you might as well get the boost it's rated for. Wynjammer pully's are a little more expensive than most due to their design. Extra cash just to maintain 6psi when you could be at 9psi?? Ditch the pully's and recoup some funds.

Honestly, when running a supercharger, you don't need underdrive pully's. The gain from the pully's is less parasitic loss, but the real world gains are very minimal. Up the boost and call it a day.

[Mikz86TA]

Im just putting the stock pullley back on myself

[TreasonAgainstCaesar]

Honestly? Yes.
If you spend the money for a larger pulley you might as well get the boost it's rated for. Wynjammer pully's are a little more expensive than most due to their design. Extra cash just to maintain 6psi when you could be at 9psi?? Ditch the pully's and recoup some funds.

Honestly, when running a supercharger, you don't need underdrive pully's. The gain from the pully's is less parasitic loss, but the real world gains are very minimal. Up the boost and call it a day.

Makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the input.

[Dogsofjune]

Yeah I did. My stock Blazer with the GM stock tune has the same injector info. Both have the poppets. Both say 23. something lb/hr.
This bugs me. Hardly anyone has any real info on the stock injector except to say they suck. Most confirm the 19# status, yet others seem to report that the PCM is seeing them as larger.
I have two stock files that are not from my truck that have it listed at 19#.

Maybe part of the difference in the 180hp to 190hp versions was just an upped fuel pressure?

A 4lb difference in injector is pretty big on a n/a engine its enough to support 60 more hp...
Now are you saying it 23lb/hr at 43.5 psi? Maybe they are 19lb injectors@43psi but since the fuel pressure may be greater, that would make them closer to a 23lb injector? Still the high duty cycle screams they are not up to the job.
Maybe that's why they are in there as 23lb because of the increased fuel pressure from what they are rated at.

Interesting puzzle.

[Mikz86TA]

Maybe but I think its just the cam in the HP difference. Interesting theory for debate/investigation tho.

[12sws27]

This bugs me. Hardly anyone has any real info on the stock injector except to say they suck. Most confirm the 19# status, yet others seem to report that the PCM is seeing them as larger.
I have two stock files that are not from my truck that have it listed at 19#.

Maybe part of the difference in the 180hp to 190hp versions was just an upped fuel pressure?

A 4lb difference in injector is pretty big on a n/a engine its enough to support 60 more hp...
Now are you saying it 23lb/hr at 43.5 psi? Maybe they are 19lb injectors@43psi but since the fuel pressure may be greater, that would make them closer to a 23lb injector? Still the high duty cycle screams they are not up to the job.
Maybe that's why they are in there as 23lb because of the increased fuel pressure from what they are rated at.

Interesting puzzle.
23lb/hr@ whatever the Jimmy's fuel pressure is. It's 55psi at the check valve. I've been assuming it was less after the FPR but maybe I'm wrong. Maybe the poppets and the MPI are the same size but the injector manufacturer just rates them at a lower fuel pressure then our trucks run. Kinda like how my Ford Cobra injectors are rated at 39.15 psi.

My question is, what fuel pressure is the stock injectors rated at? I assumed 3bar but 19lb/hr rated @ 14.3psi are more like 21lb/hr @ 55psi. Even at 60psi they aren't 23lb.

[Dogsofjune]

I figured a bit different. I calculated at least 58 psi to achieve 23#. My figures roughly bring a 19# to 22# @ 55psi

[Dogsofjune]

(Square root of new pressure/old pressure) multiplied by the old flow rate. Should equal new rate.

[12sws27]

I figured a bit different. I calculated at least 58 psi to achieve 23#. My figures roughly bring a 19# to 22# @ 55psi


(Square root of new pressure/old pressure) multiplied by the old flow rate. Should equal new rate.

You're probably right. I'm lazy and haven't learned how to do the figuring myself. So I just used some online injector calculator. I guess I should start studying more. :o

[12sws27]

(Square root of new pressure/old pressure) multiplied by the old flow rate. Should equal new rate.

Is that, square root of new pressure divided by square root of old pressure X old rate=new rate? Explain the /. I'm confuseded...

[Bone Crusher]

( square root of (new pressure / old pressure) ) * old flow rate = new flow rate

Yes that is what he is saying!!!

[12sws27]

( square root of (new pressure / old pressure) ) * old flow rate = new flow rate

Yes that is what he is saying!!!

Ok, when he just added the / but then spelled out everything else I got confused...

[Dogsofjune]

Did I say that?


What doesn't add up? Ahh. I think I know what it is. Are you coming up with CC\Min and then converting to lbs per hour?
I may have neglected that part of the equation in my happiness to respond to stuff.

Yes Bone Crusher has the proper syntax.

As an example:
50 divided by 43.5 = 1.1494
Square root of 1.1494 = 1.0721
1.0721 X 240 = 257.30

Convert to Lbs\Hr = 24.48 Lbs.

[Bone Crusher]

Same thing Dan.....LOL

I called him and he figured it out.

[Dogsofjune]

I got cornfuzed.....

[12sws27]

Oh ok! I got it...If you were to explain that to some one that started skipping school in the 10th grade it would be, old pressure divided by new. Then take that number and get the square root of it. Then take that number and multiply it by the old flow rate.

Seems that if I had a real calculator instead of the POS widows one I could just enter it in like you guys said and I'd get the answer. Learning is fun!

[12sws27]

I got cornfuzed.....

I stay confused....

[Dogsofjune]

At least you made it to 10th.

Try this calculator.. http://www.rceng.com/technical.aspx

[Mikz86TA]

holy cow....I gotta know math to get a s/c ?

[Dogsofjune]

Well anyone can strap one on, but to get it to work as efficiently as possible, you might learn a little sumfin about what works best.

Or capitalize off of the work of others..... that works too.

[Bone Crusher]

Gotta pay to play sometimes

[Slacker1357]

Hey... any progress on this???

[Mikz86TA]

On what?