Guy over @ ssf put down 260rwhp n/a!

[ZR1 S10]

Mods from his sig:

'97 Sonoma ZQ8, 4.3, 5-speed
2/3 Drop, P/P heads with 3 angle valve job, full Comp Magnum roller valvetrain, 270AHR cam, boosted's poly motor mounts, Mallory Hyfire VI-AL, K&N FIPK, Black Magic #60, HPP, Zexel with 3.42's, Taylor Spiro-Pro Wires, 3" Spin-Tech with turndown, Edelbrock T.E.S. Headers
Dyno Run 6/8/05: 271.2 lb/ft torque, 268.1 hp

Dyno sheet:

http://s-seriesforum.com/albums/My_Truck/BLK_MAJK.sized.jpg

You can still see the 4500 drop, but it's probably not as radical. He's also still got the stock intake manifold.

I'd be more than willing to be mines putting down upwards of 290! :eek: :hot_125:

[03 Rado]

WOW , look at the desk top dyno chart!!!

Where to even begin to start.
OK I'll give maybe 15 h.p. tops to the heads flywheel
30 h.p. for the cam.
5 h.p. for the rocker conversion
3 for the K&N
Nothing for the mallory
5 back for the efan
5 for the HPP
12 total for the exhaust work

Nope still doesnt add up to that number

I'd be more willing to say 185-190 to the rear wheels tops.

[ZR1 S10]

Well he's claiming it was on a mustang dyno run.

I posted possible bluf so we'll see. I know I was surprised myself. :confused:

[lowriderbowtie]

seems like pretty high numbers to me as well..

[lamerboy]

WOW , look at the desk top dyno chart!!!

You seem to think you know everything dont you?

Its the software commonly used with a mustang dyno
http://www.mustangdyne.com/MDSoftware/results.htm

Besides, Mustang Dynos tend to test lower numbers than a dynojet.

SNK SKNR doesnt mess around and you should give fellow s-series owners a little more credit than you do.

He's got a vid maybe he'll get around to posting it and shut you up. Although, I'm sure you'll have some other reason why its BS.

[Matt 4.3 TBI]

I have to admit I'm skeptical, at least of those numbers at the rear wheel. I've seen lots of 4.3's with far more mods pushing less HP than that to the rear wheels. I'm not gonna flame anyone (and I expect none of that to start here) but I'm wondering how he go another 100 hp at the crank out of fairly small mods. Something he didn't list?

[lamerboy]

I have to admit I'm skeptical, at least of those numbers at the rear wheel. I've seen lots of 4.3's with far more mods pushing less HP than that to the rear wheels. I'm not gonna flame anyone (and I expect none of that to start here) but I'm wondering how he go another 100 hp at the crank out of fairly small mods. Something he didn't list?

Ported and polished heads, full pro magnum valve train, comp 270 cam is considered small mods? What else is there to do? HR's build with JUNK heads and a carb made 300hp/316tq at the crank.

[Matt 4.3 TBI]

What else is there to do?

Fully balanced rotating assembly, stroker crankshaft, increased bore, blower/turbo, upgraded fuel delivery system, better intake manifold.

[ZR1-S10]

I'm alittle skeptical too, I could belive those numbers at the crank but at the wheels I'm not sure.

[lamerboy]

Fully balanced rotating assembly, stroker crankshaft, increased bore, blower/turbo.

Dont forget bumping up the compression ratio which would be the single most beneficial improvement. I figured we were talking N/A. Blower turbo would be obvious increases but thats cheating :D Kinda limited to about 300rwhp w/ a blower or turbo w/o the stick, heads, and/or manifold.

increased bore .030-.04 is nothing.

balancing an engine will not give you any sort of gains worth mentioning, but one would be stupid to change rods or pistons (or both) without balancing the rotating assembly. It is after all balanced from the factory to make any sort of longevity possible.

show me 1 person who has gone through the trouble (ie:$$) of stroking a 4.3L for daily driven use.

[Matt 4.3 TBI]

increased bore .030-.04 is nothing.

I bored mine only 020 and put the compression at 9.6-1 with flat-tops. If I remember right, the Vortecs are around 9.2-1, so even a small overbore would be beneficial.

[lamerboy]

For comparison 98esten made 240rwhp/280rwtq through an auto with 10:1 cr, comp 266cam, port and polished heads.

So include the differences between dynos, auto vs manual, and smaller cam vs larger cam (larger cam on the lower compression, manual trans engine) seems believable to me.

I mean my truck all stock with a blower (non intercooled) made about the same power as both these trucks and the effective compression ratio would have been somewhere around 11.5:1 at around 10-11psi of boost.

[Maximus]

If you don't think balancing a engine is worth the gains you are sadly mistaken.I am skeptical of those numbers but have seen stranger things.The Dyno is only as accurate as the man operating it too.But if those are real and accurate numbers then that's great.Score one for the little V6 that could lol.

[lamerboy]

Since an improperly balanced engine will eat itself up Id have to agree but a factory balanced engine vs an engine balanced by a machine shop wont give you much improvement.

The first engine machine shop I look up on the net says this:
"From a technical point of view, every engine regardless of the application or its selling price can benefit from balancing. A smoother-running engine is also a more powerful engine. Less energy is wasted by the crank as it thrashes about in its bearings, which translates into a little more usable power at the flywheel."

An engine has to be balanced to even work properly and survive. Unless you are changing/upgrading, rods, pistons, crank, etc a balanced stock engine wont give you gains worth bragging about.

Lets leave it at that though.. point taken from both sides.

[Maximus]

agreed

[03 Rado]

You seem to think you know everything dont you?

Its the software commonly used with a mustang dyno
http://www.mustangdyne.com/MDSoftware/results.htm

Besides, Mustang Dynos tend to test lower numbers than a dynojet.

SNK SKNR doesnt mess around and you should give fellow s-series owners a little more credit than you do.

He's got a vid maybe he'll get around to posting it and shut you up. Although, I'm sure you'll have some other reason why its BS.

Not everything, but a hell of alot more than you will!!

For one chassis dynos are and inaccurate measurement to begin with. There is just too many varibles for them to be considered a tool for truth. Engine dynos are the only accurate way to measure real time output since it has a constant across the board. Software using dynos are the worst of chassis types because it leaves it into the operator for the setup.
Look Ive been around a long time on these S boards and have seen better people come and go and never achieved what some people claim to achieve. Then Ive also seen hoards of people that have been proven into the light to be complete liars. Using MAF numbers, G-techs, desk top dynos and the likes and also backed with other peoples using the same products with the same scheming. Does Machine performance ring a bell? There were all kinds of 1/4 times and power outputs that were posted and people that went against it gang piled on when they went against it only to later find out that is was a conspiracy that was in place. That wasnt the only time, but the largest lie ever to be made and it was all S series related.
Lets just look at the knowns for a minute because this does explain everything and sheds alot of lights on why S series people for the most part cant be trusted.
You got hoards of Fbody guys and Vette guys to which you can read over there sites for information. Most of these guys have money which is one key. They have more overall knowledge and experience. Put these both together with the fact most arent young to begin with and lies dont often happen.
First off you look at there times and there power numbers. From the factory most are running factory 300 (240RWHP) and up. There cars which have better balance of weight and then add there ability to transfer weight over a truck which is a light assed vehicle and ours makes 180-190 (140-150RWHP) factory. They run high 13's and into the 14's stock. We claim (s-series) run from 14's?????? into the 15's, 16's and 17's with from 3400-4400 pounders. We got 4400 pounders running better than 3400 pounder weights in our own class????? I find that strange. Reality checks in and from previous experience I'll clear that up. 15.6+ is the best you'll see with a pickup in regular or extended cab. Higher 15's and 16's and up for everything else. So the lies have allready begun. There is a difference of 100 h.p.+ and what I said for times is about right for the span difference that any decent mind person, software etc can accept as real.
Now they add mods and gain X horsepower and I know for the most parts its believable and so does the software etc. We do the same mods and get the same horsepower, now that says right off the lies begin again. We at best according to the grand scheme cannot make the same gains. Were 75% of what they are in cylinder numbers and thats all you need to know. They add a SC at 8 lbs boost and gain 80 h.p. and we do too??? They gain .8 off the change and we see 1.2 seconds??? It just keeps getting worse to the point that a vehicle much better geared with closer ratios transmissions, better weight transfer and better traction begins to not gain the same degree of time improvement and we do? Now you got 300 h.p, trucks running better times than a 300 h.p. better to begin with vehicle for racing purposes. I'm sorry but first that doesnt add up and it cant and second first hand track experiences either running or watching has never seen that happen.
Now to the heads. Vortec heads by these same experienced high dollar people with Chevy Mania, Chevy High performance, Hot Rod and a host of well known high dollar builders say you cannot improve upon the Vortec head enough to warrent staying with them to a certian higher horsepower level. 5% sometimes on a rarity a 10% flow gain can be gotten from these heads, if you were to consider a even across the board playing field for the flow gain percentage it comes out like this. 30 h.p. tops from the head work, that makes 22 h.p. tops for a V-6, but thats tops and more like the 5% listed which makes 15 h.p. V-8 and 11.75 h.p. for the V-6. This isnt the old days when 120-140 CFM heads factory could be made to flow 160-200 and sometimes higher to around 200 CFM max, a higher percentage of flow gains. I dont care what you say and you dont care what I say, were agreed, but when these magazines and engine builders well known in circles says its true, its true and you cant tell me heads are gonna do more. Same goes for your cams picks, every one of these same sources list .450 lift being the max to even bother with on a Vortec head because it begins to lose its flow capabilites even all done up at that point. From .400-.500 lift the gain in air flows from bench tests show less than a 10% gain between the 2 and at .600 lift allmost no gain over .500. They say duration is the key factor for these heads and not lift. I will give you the max availabe to what I know to be true, 15 h.p. for the heads and 30 h.p. for the cam on a wild stretch for me and then another 15 h.p. for the rest of his mods. Thats 60 h.p. tops, makes it no more than 205 h.p. tops and thats real world that I can believe considering I went throught this myself and didnt bother with porting the heads or valves, just full roller rockers at 1:6.1 and netted just over 190 h.p. and 240 ft lbs of torque. It ran a best of 15.2 when it was done and with a 50 shot hit 14.8 and it had the best traction that was affordable with the leaf springs.
From all Ive ever seen at a track, whats posted by cars that will run faster and what magazines list , hell even the SY-TY board where there its still S related, but with money and some older experienced knowledge against what S-series non St-Ty post, what would you conclude to be the real truth??? Yeah I know SCed motors that see 100 h.p. gains can run 2 seconds , **** allmost 3 seconds faster than before. Nitrous trucks with up to 125 shots of basically stock motors that run 12's!!!! But yet better vehicles with higher base h.p. numbers cant?

[ZR1 S10]

You seem to think you know everything dont you?

Its the software commonly used with a mustang dyno
http://www.mustangdyne.com/MDSoftware/results.htm

Besides, Mustang Dynos tend to test lower numbers than a dynojet.

SNK SKNR doesnt mess around and you should give fellow s-series owners a little more credit than you do.

He's got a vid maybe he'll get around to posting it and shut you up. Although, I'm sure you'll have some other reason why its BS.

http://www.s-seriesforum.com/forum/images/smilies/owned.gif

Ah sweet!! You the man :D

Hopefully I can get mine on a dyno, one of these years :blindfold :paperbag_

[Sparky2263]

Not everything, but a hell of alot more than you will!!

(The arrogance reveals itself yet again.)

For one chassis dynos are and inaccurate measurement to begin with.

(Not if used consistently and properly for the same vehicle. Wanna see some variations? Take an engine to 2 different engine dynos and watch the results. Been there, done that.)

Lets just look at the knowns for a minute because this does explain everything and sheds alot of lights on why S series people for the most part cant be trusted.

(Then why are you here?)

From the factory most are running factory 300 (240RWHP) and up. There cars which have better balance of weight and then add there ability to transfer weight over a truck which is a light assed vehicle and ours makes 180-190 (140-150RWHP) factory. They run high 13's and into the 14's stock. We claim (s-series) run from 14's?????? into the 15's, 16's and 17's with from 3400-4400 pounders. We got 4400 pounders running better than 3400 pounder weights in our own class????? I find that strange. Reality checks in and from previous experience I'll clear that up. 15.6+ is the best you'll see with a pickup in regular or extended cab. Higher 15's and 16's and up for everything else. So the lies have allready begun. There is a difference of 100 h.p.+ and what I said for times is about right for the span difference that any decent mind person, software etc can accept as real.

(Better balance of weight? Over a Blazer? Not hardly. And a P/U is 400-800 lbs. lighter. READ .4-.8 TENTHS QUICKER ON WEIGHT ALONE!!! Of course, it takes knowledge of chassis set-up to do but then that's not your area of expertise is it?)


They gain .8 off the change and we see 1.2 seconds??? It just keeps getting worse to the point that a vehicle much better geared with closer ratios transmissions, better weight transfer and better traction begins to not gain the same degree of time improvement and we do? Now you got 300 h.p, trucks running better times than a 300 h.p. better to begin with vehicle for racing purposes. I'm sorry but first that doesnt add up and it cant and second first hand track experiences either running or watching has never seen that happen.

(You obviously have spent little time at the track. The lighter vehicles, uh, go faster than the heavier ones with the same hp.)

Now to the heads. Vortec heads by these same experienced high dollar people with Chevy Mania, Chevy High performance, Hot Rod and a host of well known high dollar builders say you cannot improve upon the Vortec head enough to warrent staying with them to a certian higher horsepower level. 5% sometimes on a rarity a 10% flow gain can be gotten from these heads, if you were to consider a even across the board playing field for the flow gain percentage it comes out like this. . I will give you the max availabe to what I know to be true, 15 h.p. for the heads and 30 h.p. for the cam on a wild stretch for me and then another 15 h.p. for the rest of his mods. Thats 60 h.p. tops, makes it no more than 205 h.p. tops and thats real world that I can believe considering I went throught this myself and didnt bother with porting the heads or valves, just full roller rockers at 1:6.1 and netted just over 190 h.p. and 240 ft lbs of torque. It ran a best of 15.2 when it was done and with a 50 shot hit 14.8 and it had the best traction that was affordable with the leaf springs.

(Thank God all the stock class racers running the same basic head have had better luck than you.)


Nitrous trucks with up to 125 shots of basically stock motors that run 12's!!!! But yet better vehicles with higher base h.p. numbers cant?

(You're not REALLY trying to say my Blazer doesn't run 12's are you? Why yes, I believe you are. Here's the difference my friend. I back my **** up. You merely try and impress us with words.)



I say to all here. This guy is a blowhard and antagonist of the first degree. Words, words, words. You got something concrete for all your "experience"? I didn't think so. Your arrogance and "know-it-all" attitude impedes your ability to learn and leads to post such as this. You take a set of knowns and all your conclusions get drawn from that. You offer up nothing new, rely on others testing and allow nothing for the unknowns. I use the tried and true method of test, test, test. If people were to follow you, hell, we'd still be living in caves.

Now tell the truth. Are you Obi-Wan or merely his lackey?

[03 Rado]

I say to all here. This guy is a blowhard and antagonist of the first degree. Words, words, words. You got something concrete for all your "experience"? I didn't think so. Your arrogance and "know-it-all" attitude impedes your ability to learn and leads to post such as this. You take a set of knowns and all your conclusions get drawn from that. You offer up nothing new, rely on others testing and allow nothing for the unknowns. I use the tried and true method of test, test, test. If people were to follow you, hell, we'd still be living in caves.

Now tell the truth. Are you Obi-Wan or merely his lackey?

Dont look into the mirror when you try to call something out.
I just love the phrase show me something concrete when it applies to situations like this and what do you get, fake dyno sheets and times.
You argue against solidly backed knowns posted by individuals that CAN BE TRUSTED, written and proven at numberous tracks throughout the land and act like your backyard services can offer so much more insight to them. There has been literally thousands of previous S-Series owners that tinkered and toyed to thee hearts content only to finally summarize that its not possible the things you now new people claim to be had and done. These were hard core people when well before the younger crowd got to find these places out that shared each and every attempt that could muster and help each other where it counts and steer them away from what isnt possible. Just go read, reread and read again posts from 3-4-5 years ago and see what was written. Go poke around the net and get all the information you can find from all the major mags, trustful sites etc and you'll find its all true.

As a example of how far into depth this misinformation/lies goes just follow the Machine Performance threads over the years. From square one this was to be the best kit, the ATI kit, that was ever made. It would make power like no other before it and run times like nothing ever to be seen before. It promised everything and began to sell. Everybody that bought one all got onto the bandwagon of how wonderful this product was and what it could do. It claimed on 8 PSI 2 core aftercooled to make 275 RWHP on a COMPLETE factory rig, no other mods included and even gobs more with other mods. It posted times well into the low 13's and even got into the 12's. The same person whom made this kit was asked one time about the heads on the 4.3. About the only time he ever told the truth was when he stated there was nothing more than 10-12 CFM to be achieved on these heads and this was according to what he saw and a shop he used in the past that does race proven motors. People just kept going and asking using old school ideals on heads and finally he began to offer the service of doing machine work for higher lifts and conversions to rollers. That bloomed then he began to offer stage 2 then stage 3 all knowing it woudnt do anything. He silently backed away from his original statement because of the money pouring in.Then began to retract from other statements he had made about MAFs, Fuel systems and more. 3-4 people had always claimed that what he was doing was wrong and offered proof so many times it wasnt funny, even the posts from before the retraction of certain statements and the after ones were posted. This began a war in which then mods and admins took old statements off the boards, erased them, edited posts to back him and so on. This went on for years until one day one person who had bought one of these great wonder kits finally had enough of the **** and posted the real information. Well he was ganged up upon and made to look as a fool just like the others whom went against it. Finally Machine Performance pissed off enough people that slowly they all came forward, highly regarded trusted members of the S-Series community. Rev racing was one and a guy who had the first turbo kit that went on to have a his motor fully built with everything came out and exposed the mess due to finally accepting they got screwed. WHat did they tell us?? Well it was all lies, 100% so and made pretty much up to help the company as it began and fight off the few detractors that knew better. All the times and horsepower numbers were all lies. Some were desk top dynoed, some projections based on odd scenerios, copied and pasted of others information to down right made up lies. Some never saw the track ever, yet ran great times and so on.
You know how many non ATI customers had gone there in hopes of something better and were destroyed without openly knowing they were.

He had Vortec owners and Powerdyne owners going to his shop to be custom intercooled, tuned and the whole nine yards and they just couldnt even come close to mustering the numbers the ATI kit had, the ATI was king of the mountian. It wasnt limited to just forced air applications either, it went into nitrous and NA motors that were under the same misrepresentation of lies.

Since that all has died down no one to this date has mustered the numbers that this scenerio had accomplised. Now we have a new cream of the crop role players starting the same **** again about what they can achieve. Some of these people when they first hit the boards within the last couple of years sent out PM's, emails, Aim sessions and so fourth looking for help, information, anything to accomlish faster, more horsepower etc type thing from older users. All of a sudden these askers of questions showing they knew nothing or needed alot of guidance are all pros now??????? They can do what others before them couldnt do, is backed by all kinds of information for all kinds of outlets that says otherwise, yet type better and gang tackle to make it look better. Nah we've seen it before and the outcome will be the same over time!!!

You guys can keep posting your **** trying to detract from the truth as far as you want, calling out CONRETE, SLIPS etc. Really doesnt matter because anyone with half a brain, google, a track nearby can go look for themselves to see whats real and whats made up!! You just cant make a V-6 do the same thing as a V-8 and thats fact!!!!! But you's will try to say you can. Just go back to your failed parts, your fired from jobs and ask them why they did what they did if your all great and mighty!!!!!!!

[03 Rado]

Go on boys and girls and look for fuel injection calaculators and do this math.

If it was truly correct his 260+ h.p. number at the wheels would be just over 305 or so at the flywheel.
So take 19lbs and hour, 100% duty cycle at 60 PSI pressure and you'll find that 275 flywheel is its limit with 6 cylinders. No injector can run at 100% duty cycle to begin with unassisted and also the ECM will not allow this to be at 100% duty. So with the factory pump knowns that it will drop down into the high 50s in fuel pressure at WOT,, meaning even 275 flywheel is a stretch now, how is it making something again knowns say it cant! If they had a wideband on it and the operator of the dyno was watching he would have shut the test down because it would have been into the 17's for air fuel ratios!!!

Thats besides the fact, with those numbers, he just made 80% of the S/C users look like a bunch of losers!!

And Forced air guys should know this to be true. With 19lb and hour injectors running factory locked 80% duty cycles and 60PSI pressure can only maintain and make roughly 220 RWHP. If what he said was even remotely true, there would be no need for a FMU at 8PSI! And no the fuel injector people DO NOT USE RWHP for there calculators, there stuff is done on engine dynos, not chassis!

[Sparky2263]

And so it is revealed, the great quitter with all the chips still stacked on his shoulder.

Putting others down to make yourself feel better. My, my.

So, you are the purveyor of what doesn't work, correct? Then tell me again, how does my Blazer acheive 12 sec. times on a basically stock motor (proven)? Resistor trickery?

C'mon, take your best shot. And it's my daily driver. And gets over 17mpg (when I'm easy on it).

Put up or shut up.

[Hammer]

300hp=desired hp
6 injectors=sfi
.55 usage=typical for na applications
1=duty cycle 100% duty cycle absolute most you can due
61psig=maximum allowable pressure as per chiltons.

=23.22lb/hr (from link provided)

http://www.rceng.com/technical.htm