Pre '02 Poppet Injectors VS Multec II's.

[lamerboy]

Just want to mention a couple things about the 2 different style injectors available on our trucks. I would post this in the Forced Induction forum but I believe it would benefit you N/A guys to know about it as well.

The pre '02 and older injectors (poppet) are capable of supplying way more fuel than the Multec II injector setups GM put on our trucks after '02 in an effort to clear up some misfire issues common with the poppet style injectors. Ive had both on my truck and I went back to the poppet style so I can supply enough fuel with the blower and intercooler. It took way over 100psi of fuel pressure to keep up with the new style injectors, and that still wasnt enough, where as the poppet injectors only needed 80-85psi of fuel pressure.

The new style multec II injectors which are truely 24lb/hr injectors anyone would have problems at anything above 250hp. The old style poppet injectors are capable of over 350hp or more. JDB over at SSF/S10F is making that at the crank with around 90psi of fuel pressure and some minor tuning with LS1edit.

Now before anyone goes off on a tangent about injectors locking (using an fmu), and fuel atomization.. Yes they will lock at even relatively low fuel pressure.. 1st gear slam on the throttle and they will lock. Roll into the throttle a bit and then get to wot and they wont. 2nd gear, no problem. Its when you spike them is when they lock. No they probably wont last all that long if you spike them shut all the time but when the manifold isnt capable of accepting standard fuel injectors we have to do the best we can with what we have.

Replace the stock manifold with the 2114, weld in some bungs, fuel rails, fuel line adapters, tune with tunercat or LS1edit, etc and you're on your way to having any size injector you need. In the end expect to pay atleast a grand and there is some issues with adaptation of fuel lines etc that need to be dealt with. I have been working on a project converting a stock manifold to accept standard injectors. Bungs are welded in but since my blower took a dump I've begun working on a syty turbo swap. Once that is complete I'll go back to the manifold project.

So to sum it up, with the correct tuning it is possible to get well over 275hp out of the stock poppet injector assemblies available on our trucks. They re not true 24lb injectors! They are capable of acting like 44lb injectors due to the poppet design. The new style Multec II's - forget about anything over 250hp w/o extra injectors because they are true 24lb injectors PERIOD.

AGAIN: Ive had both on my truck, and wouldnt go through all the trouble of going back to the poppet style if I didnt need to.
Flame away. I know plenty of you will.

[03 Rado]

19;bs and hour is there rating for both the multi's and the poppets.
The poppets are forced open nearing 80 PSI and fuel all the time under these conditions and no longer spray as it would pulsing is the reason they can flow to numbers nearing 28 lbs and hour. Multitechs cannot be blown open and will act as they are designed to be.

Sticking poppets also seem to be a problem with these systems. GM has an on-the-car cleaner designed to free sticking poppets. I recently heard from a technician at a GM dealer that he had to run the system up to 80 psi before he had any luck with the cleaner. We have just recently started seeing these systems in our fuel injection room. As more and more go through the system, we will have more detailed information on testing and repairing these CSFI systems.<<< Borrowed from Lindertech


We have written many newsletter and magazine articles about the General Motors Central Sequential Fuel Injection (CSFI) system. You know the one; it's on the 1996 through 2001 4.3L/5.0L & 5.7L that suffers from stuck poppet valves. Many of you have tried to free the poppets as recommended by G.M. and clean these units. Or maybe you have even replaced the injector-poppet for the cylinder(s) that had the misfire. Then you find in a week or two the vehicle is back in your shop again for another misfire code. You don't know what went wrong, it ran great when it left, but now you are back at square one again. Well here's what happening, CSFI is similar to the CPI system used on previous 4.3L engines. Rather than one maxi style injector feeding all the poppets and firing every crankshaft revolution, it uses one injector for each poppet that is fired sequentially. This gave the poppets a hot soak period before they fired again. This made these units susceptible to tarnish build up on the poppets and caused the poppets to stick. G.M. has even written lengthy tech bulletins about unsticking seized poppets and servicing this system but they still stick. So what is the answer?<<<< Also borrowed from Lindertech


What does and injector thats pushed beyond its 80% duty cycle do and allready happens at lower numbers. Its called heat soak and destroys and injector and will over time cause them to fail.

[Hammer]

275 hp needs 63.5psi at 100% duty cycle and injectors fail at 80+ psi according to delphi.

http://www.rceng.com/technical.htm

also according to GM TSB# once a cleaning or stick at 80psi occurs and it happens again, the injector has failed and must be replaced.

http://www.babcox.com/editorial/us/us30098.htm
edit: that isn't the bulletin but it is close.

based on that, i don't see how you can run the injectors over %80 duty cycle with 80+psi and not have failing components?
maybe i missed something so i'm not positive on that.


i'm working on spec sheets.... for the components.

[lamerboy]

Do your math.. look for specs.. Have you yourselves actually tried both sets of injectors?

I know what both styles of injectors are capable of because Ive used both of them on my truck on my application which makes over 300hp at the crank. Infact I'm on my second set of poppet injectors. Nothing you can say or calculate is going to change that.

The poppet injectors due to their design are capable of well over 24lb/hr (Infact about double that) unlike the multecII's which are true 19lb/hr injectors at 60% duty cycle. GM wont tell you that because even GM has never tried to use the poppet injectors on a supercharged application and run them well beyond their normal duty cycle..

So you think an intecooled truck at 11-12 psi makes only 250hp at the crank? sorry youre wrong, they make that much non intercooled with a bunch of timing taken out.

STOCK timing, with an intercooler, 91 octane, old style poppet injectors - NO DETONATION - perfect 11.6:1 a/f ratio. Throw the multec II's on there and I cant retard the timing enough.. it leans out on the top end because youre reaching max duty cycle with that style of injector, which is a true injector, not a poppet assembly.

Tell me, WHY WOULD I LIE ABOUT THIS?

Just to be a **** on your little forum? NO. Just to prove you wrong? NO.
To help fellow S-Series owners? YES!

Theres a new guy on your forum. Metalbraino, I helped him put his vortech blower in his truck. Its a 2002. He since added an intercooler like my setup and now wants a set of the old style poppet injectors so he doesnt have to retard timing and still lean out on the top.. MEANING HE NEEDS BIGGER INJECTORS. The poppet assembly is capable of this.

GO find your little url about what GM says. They havent tried supercharging an S10 with both style injectors now have they?

[Sparky2263]

My CPI handles 80-100 psi just fine.

The GM injector cleaner commonly sees 100-120 to clean the injectors. I posted the bulletin here once already. Now I'm not saying what psi the bulletin says to clean 'em at, I'm telling you what is actually happening to get 'em nice and shiny inside ;)

[Hammer]

Delphi rates the injectors at 19lb/hr 80% duty cycle.

i don't discredit what you have done

simply stated, GM rates them for X run them beyond X and you are at your own risk.

[Sparky2263]

The CPI is rated at 119.2 (where'd the .2 come from? :))

I only need 80-84 psi (on nitrous) to hit 270 hp. Don't know what the new combo is gonna require but I think I'll have plenty of room.

[Hammer]

The CPI is rated at 119.2 (where'd the .2 come from? :))

I only need 80-84 psi (on nitrous) to hit 270 hp. Don't know what the new combo is gonna require but I think I'll have plenty of room.

CPI as in the injector or the poppets, the injector is rated at 19lbs/hr edit... that would be right sparky, 19lbs/hr per cylinder.

[Sparky2263]

Never seen a spec on the poppets, just the injector.

[Hammer]

The CPI is rated at 119.2 (where'd the .2 come from? :))

I only need 80-84 psi (on nitrous) to hit 270 hp. Don't know what the new combo is gonna require but I think I'll have plenty of room.

yours handles it just fine, but it isn't rated at that like a proper injector would be. i.e. a 26lb/hr would handle the same application with lower psi and lower duty cycle, that is the point... well one of them.

[Hammer]

sparky, how are you running 84psi on cpi, do you have a freekin clamp on the return line or what.

[Sparky2263]

When the nitrous is triggered it bleeds pressure to the top of the fuel pressure regulator. Adjustable with the same nitrous pills you use on the nozzle. I use the same dry system on the Vortec 454. Dry is the SHEOT!

http://www.sicgmtrucks.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=1431&stc=1

I silver soldered the copper tube to the regulator. Then use 3/16" steel tubing and drilled it through the lower intake. You can see the tie straps holding the hose to the tube at the rear of the intake.

[Hammer]

i personally would not trust that... but i have a 2003 with 50,000 on it and no shop to fix it, so that is your decision to run it that way but it certainly is not rated for those psi or duty cycle and that is all i'm looking for here you know.

[Sparky2263]

I did this exactly a year ago. Run 20 or so 10 lb. bottles through it so far. Same results on the Chevelle.

The advantage of dry injection is the ability to place the nitrous nozzle at the most strategic point. The extra fuel is port injected while the nitrous is injected before the throttle plate. On a convoluted intake the power gains (as compared to trying to get fuel to go where only air ws meant to pass) over wet systems are fairly high for each given nozzle size.

Now, when the new combo goes together, I'll probably have to resort to an FMU. No biggie for me as I've installed a few with good results. Crude? Yes. Works good? Yes also. My limiting factor (hp wise) will be the factory fuel pump. It's only gonna support X amount of hp the way I'm making it. I'll have to back off on the nitrous shot as there won't be a lot left.

[Hammer]

there are terms for that kind of "rigging"... lol. jimmy being one of them, but if it works for you....

[Sparky2263]

Rigging, huh? Oh well........

[biglouie_underpressure]

Just to be a **** on your little forum? NO. Just to prove you wrong? NO.
To help fellow S-Series owners? YES!... and your doing a great job with all this good info. i wish my desktop dyno would let me push those numbers.....oh well maybe with the 2006 version.

[Maximus]

It works it works but I just couldn't trust it.My luck it would crap out on me at the WORST possible time and leave me walking for miles.Thank god both of mine have upgradeable injectors.GM should have just forked out the extra cash and use a regular injector system.Then we wouldn't see problems like this.But that's GM for you cutting corners that bites us in the ass.

[Sparky2263]

Just to be a **** on your little forum? NO. Just to prove you wrong? NO.
To help fellow S-Series owners? YES!... and your doing a great job with all this good info. i wish my desktop dyno would let me push those numbers.....oh well maybe with the 2006 version.

Thanks Louie. Good to hear from the hometown crowd. :)

[lamerboy]

i wish my desktop dyno would let me push those numbers.....oh well maybe with the 2006 version.

If the truck made close to 250rwhp/280rwtq nonintercooled with a bunch of timing removed why is it so unbelievable that it makes 290rwhp with stock timing which would be over 300hp at the crank (auto trans)?

Last time I checked mid 13's in the 1/4 with a 3800lb truck would be about 300rwhp. 20% loss through an auto would be 375hp at the crank.

[biglouie_underpressure]

If the truck made close to 250rwhp/280rwtq nonintercooled with a bunch of timing removed why is it so unbelievable that it makes 290rwhp with stock timing which would be over 300hp at the crank (auto trans)?

Last time I checked mid 13's in the 1/4 with a 3800lb truck would be about 300rwhp. 20% loss through an auto would be 375hp at the crank.

What are you trying to compare too in the first question? This thread is making it seem like stock poppets are the only means of tuning for more fuel. What happen to super fuelers,afc's,extra injectors,motec yada yada. Ok it's great that you didn't have to pull so much timing with the old style,but why fight with them if your pushing almost 400hp like you said, Also whats the purpose of this thread? Oh people look no more you can push your stock fuel system to 90+psi but kids make sure you roll into first gear at the track so your poppets don't stick on ya.



no buddy i belive it's running mid 13's no doubt about that ...that S-special does wonders

[ZR1-S10]

As for us not believing the numbers, they where made by someone on anther forum and we can't confirm them. Let's just see what it takes for one of US to make those numbers.

As far as pushing the stock poppets beyond GM specs, I'm not even going there, I'll be getting the 2114 conversion so not to deal with crap like that. And if you can't afford the 2114 then why spend money beyond 275hp? I'll give Sparky credit for his "rigging" but it's still cutting corners like GM did with the poppets to begin with.

[lamerboy]

Also whats the purpose of this thread? Oh people look no more you can push your stock fuel system to 90+psi but kids make sure you roll into first gear at the track so your poppets don't stick on ya.

To give you the opportunity to flame me of course. lol.

The reason for the thread is that there is a difference between the 2 sets of injectors. Nothing was more frustrating than putting in the multecII injectors and not beable to drive the truck like I could with the poppet injectors. The only thing nice about it was knowing I was making too much hp for injectors with a million psi of fuel pressure pushing through them.
How many people run superchargers and dont upgrade the manifold or add a second set of injectors? From what Ive seen NO ONE has actually put the 2114 on their truck and tuned for larger injectors yet. (actually TJ has but they blew up the motor running it up 6300rpm w/ a bunch of boost).

If the locking issue didnt piss me off then why would I be going through the trouble of modifying a stock manifold for larger injectors?

Yes and now is your oppurtunity to continue your bashing over the stock manifold and how much it doesnt flow and that I'm wasting my time blah blah blah... It doesnt matter what I do you'll poke holes in it. Youre good that, and obviously proud of it..

http://www.jhbi.com/s10rz350/manifold/bung-weld2.jpg

[biglouie_underpressure]

LMFAO how did i flame you? yes that intake is gonna flow like @ss but you said it.

The only thing nice about it was knowing I was making too much hp for injectors with a million psi of fuel pressure pushing through them. Classic...and prolly because your trying to tune for a 11.1 WOT. Also, what good is psi with out volume?

From what Ive seen NO ONE has actually put the 2114 on their truck and tuned for larger injectors yet....and your point? is that the second only way to go? i can give you about 5 ways off top to supply more than enough fuel for these little motors.Infact. we just dyno my buddys mustang yesterday with 725 rwhp running 42lb injectors and yet i see ppl putting this jokers on 300hp motors,the funniest thing yet.

it's funny how you sate your f*ck up's then pull out the "bash all you wan't card"

[lamerboy]

Actually the intake will flow just fine for what I want to do with my truck and Ive always said that. I'm not trying to make 725hp like your "buddies" mustang. You just use it as another opportunity to do more bashing. Its hilarious how you are blind to it. LOL.

I pull out the "bash all you want card" because I know you will! DUH!

[lamerboy]

The only thing nice about it was knowing I was making too much hp for injectors with a million psi of fuel pressure pushing through them. Classic...and prolly because your trying to tune for a 11.1 WOT. Also, what good is psi with out volume?

Its obvious from what youre saying you have NO IDEA how small a difference in fuel pressure is required between 11:1 a/f ratio and 12:1 a/f ratio.

[lamerboy]

.Infact. we just dyno my buddys mustang yesterday with 725 rwhp running 42lb injectors and yet i see ppl putting this jokers on 300hp motors,the funniest thing yet.


8-44lb/hr injectors at 85% duty cycle will only support 600hp.

[lamerboy]

The only thing nice about it was knowing I was making too much hp for injectors with a million psi of fuel pressure pushing through them. Classic...and prolly because your trying to tune for a 11.1 WOT. Also, what good is psi with out volume?

You miss the point completely (besides your opportunity to bash/hate/flame) . If one set of injectors has no problem making any a/f ratio no matter how rich and another set of injectors cant supply enough fuel to keep from detonating (leaner than 12.5:1) how is fuel pressure or volume gonna make any difference? ITS NOT. Bigger injectors are needed.

[03 Rado]

You miss the point completely (besides your opportunity to bash/hate/flame) . If one set of injectors has no problem making any a/f ratio no matter how rich and another set of injectors cant supply enough fuel to keep from detonating (leaner than 12.5:1) how is fuel pressure or volume gonna make any difference? ITS NOT. Bigger injectors are needed.


I'll take a poke at this one! There will be a point somewhere in the 300 h.p. range that no matter what injector size you run it'll never flow the fuel required because the main fuel line is too small. If you go over 300 h.p. it would be a very wise move to up size the line. The factory line is too small to flow the volume needed, but I guess you would then say otherwise against the fuel injector and carb people!!

[lamerboy]

I'll take a poke at this one! There will be a point somewhere in the 300 h.p. range that no matter what tor you run it'll never flow the fuel required because the main fuel line is too small. If you go over 300 h.p. it would be a very wise move to up size the line. The factory line is too small to flow the volume needed, but I guess you would then say otherwise against the fuel injector and carb people!!

Youre not listening, just trying you hardest to prove me wrong. Supplying enough fuel is NOT an issue with the old style poppet injectors. I can run 9.5:1 a/f ratio with the old style injectors at 5,500 rpm if I wanted to.

JDB with heads, cam and more boost has no problems with the poppet style injectors. Our fuel lines are more than capable at supplying enough fuel.

[lamerboy]

You guys are hilarious.. Never even tried any of this and yet you think you have all the answers.

Continue on though.. I'm enjoying all of this. At some point though you're going to have to realize, unlike you guys, I'm not going to make threads or post about something I have no experience with.

[biglouie_underpressure]

8-44lb/hr injectors at 85% duty cycle will only support 600hp.
so we didn't make 725hp?

[biglouie_underpressure]

You guys are hilarious.. Never even tried any of this and yet you think you have all the answers.

Continue on though.. I'm enjoying all of this. At some point though you're going to have to realize, unlike you guys, I'm not going to make threads or post about something I have no experience with.
.. Never even tried any of this and yet you think you have all the answers.
you are correct i wouldn't be an @ss to push 100psi out of some shyt like that.

ha experiance..in what your mid 13 sec truck give me some of that shyt you smoke please . how the hell are you gonna tell me that we didn't run those numbers? dyno was broke huh? hey if you want you can get your buddy sparky to drive around the corner and watch us put down 800hp with 18psi (62lb injectors)w/t66 ball bearing. ;) i guess thats what happens when you use a desktop dyno for accurate numbers.

[biglouie_underpressure]

Its obvious from what youre saying you have NO IDEA how small a difference in fuel pressure is required between 11:1 a/f ratio and 12:1 a/f ratio.
no sorry i don't tune by fuel pressure alone...i have a wide band i can turn up the regulator and let you know.

[biglouie_underpressure]

Youre not listening, just trying you hardest to prove me wrong. Supplying enough fuel is NOT an issue with the old style poppet injectors. I can run 9.5:1 a/f ratio with the old style injectors at 5,500 rpm if I wanted to.

JDB with heads, cam and more boost has no problems with the poppet style injectors. Our fuel lines are more than capable at supplying enough fuel.
so why are you stuffing your intake if you can run the old style? OK old style poppets will out flow new styles.....great info and thanks for the great write up that 3% of the ppl on this forum needed to know. The end....

[03 Rado]

Youre not listening, just trying you hardest to prove me wrong. Supplying enough fuel is NOT an issue with the old style poppet injectors. I can run 9.5:1 a/f ratio with the old style injectors at 5,500 rpm if I wanted to.

JDB with heads, cam and more boost has no problems with the poppet style injectors. Our fuel lines are more than capable at supplying enough fuel.

Trying hard to prove you wrong. You whole basis to everything is all completely wrong and attacked the wrong way. Posting up one person that has accomplished something by pure luck it not the answer. You cant take 2+2 and put it together, plain old simple period.
You add diameter to your exhaust why? According to your neverending pile of **** youve allready posted the factory one should surfice, so why change it.
When you run ducting for a IC you keep it continually the same size or size it down, why? Oh you probably wouldnt know nor do that one.

Why dont you explain the ideals behind and orfice, hole, pipe etc. Volume does not increase proportionally to the increase of pressure. Some point in the pressure increase it no longer flow higher amounts proportionally and will begin to decrease rapidly. No one has pinned that completely down as to there problem, but has learned the FMU has its limit working with any injector. From the exhaust enlargement to the fuel delivery, anything that uses a hole must be considered into a restriction ball game. You guys might be allright using the poppets as is, but no one will ever know that because you blame the poppets limitations themselves.

Use these figures as a fuel line sizing standard:

Up to 250HP = 5/16" or -04 AN
Up to 375HP = 3/8" or -06 AN
Up to 550HP = 1/2" or -08 AN
Up to 800HP = 5/8" or -10 AN
Up to 1200HP = 3/4" or -12 AN
If you use a return-style regulator, you will also need a return line from the regulator back to the tank. The size of the return line is dependent on the size of the pump you are using, regardless of the engine's horsepower output. The return line must have limited or NO pressure in it. In most cases, the minimum return line size will match that of the supply line, but a larger return line is sometimes preferred.

Use these ratings to decide your return line sizing based upon fuel pump output:



Up to 45GPH = 5/16" or -04 AN
Up to 90GPH = 3/8" or -06 AN
Up to 180GPH = 1/2" or -08 AN
Up to 360GPH = 5/8" or -10 AN
up to 720GPH = 3/4"or -12 AN
Taken right off http://www.centuryperformance.com/fuel.asp

[03 Rado]

You guys are hilarious.. Never even tried any of this and yet you think you have all the answers.

Continue on though.. I'm enjoying all of this. At some point though you're going to have to realize, unlike you guys, I'm not going to make threads or post about something I have no experience with.


Ive spent 25 years, trying to make them do what should not be done nor tried. I have and will go back to once again Roots type systems and big block V-8s once the kids are gone. Ive owned Root Blowers and toyed with more Roots Blowers!!! I used to install and service air compression systems and still to this day where I work now do this. Dont you ever try to tell me how compressed air, ducting and line sizing etc works, you have no freaking clue whom your are speaking to just like i don't you but listen to those whom do this!!

[Hammer]

keep it clean here and keep the personal attacks OUT OF THIS DISCUSSION.

just listen to what I HAVE to say for a second.

lamer boy has a valid point. it can be done, what he and sparky are suggesting can be physically done.

the point we are making is that it is not reliable, safe or recommended. those points are disputable case by case but there is DEFINABLE RISK at working outside manufacturer specifications and NO ONE HERE should deny that, lamer boy and sparky and whomever should recognize that also. failing to recognize those points is dangerous to people whom you give this information to and that is our back bone, atleast come clean and say that it's beyond what the system is designed for and it isn't reliable or recommended for safe and normal operation of the systems.

nobody is disputing that what you lamer boy or sparky have done "can be done" obviously it can be done, run the math and you will see that running the poppets at 100% duty cycle and over 80psi can net you near 300hp.

now i ask you this, at what risk is it to do that?

[Sparky2263]

Hammer you speak of risks you haven't fully analyzed. I was raised in an era when you couldn't go to the store and buy your horsepower. The fastest guy was the smartest, most ingenious or luckiest. Usually a combination of these combined with a lot of effort. These days they call it thinking outside the box.

When you ridicule someone elses efforts because all you are capable of is following instructions supplied with the parts, you demean the efforts of thousands of guys before you that tried and tried again to find out what you can now mail-order from any catalog.

This sudden talk of "risk". Well, old saying around the racetrack advises you to tie some kerosene rags around your ankles to keep the ants from crawling up and eating that candy-ass. ;)

[lamerboy]

I never said I have to push 100psi of fuel at the poppet injectors, only the upgraded MultecII's which I dont have on my truck anymore. I've repeated that about 10 times now but you guys continue to ignore the fact that Ive ran both.
Once again: Thats the whole point of this thread. The poppet style injectors take between 80 and 85 psi of fuel pressure for over 300hp at the crank, any a/f ratio you want.

Anyhow, its obvious you guys are never going to take my word for it. Was just trying to share what I experienced with both style injectors, and then you see the need to try and prove me wrong because I'm not in your little sicgmtruck club. I've done it, your equations about fuel line size mean nothing since it wasnt an issue.. No fuel line diameter is going to make up for a tiny little injector only capable of supporting 275hp at 100% duty cycle.

[lamerboy]

BTW Ive put over 50,000 miles on my truck supercharged with 2 different sets of poppet injector assemblies and 1 set of the multec II's using an FMU.. Ive used the procharger fmu from mach performance and switched to the cartech 2025. Truck now has 100,000 miles on it. Hey it still runs and never lit on fire. But im sure many of you will disagree with me and tell me thats not reliable at all.

20-25psi of fuel pressure above stock really isnt that big of a deal.. Would be nice to have some real injectors and tune it with tunercat though. ;)

[Hammer]

this isn't a race track

[Sparky2263]

this isn't a race track

Interesting. We constantly talk about increasing hp. And how fast our trucks are. And how to make them faster.

[Hammer]

well we are talking about what something can and can not due vs what something can and can not due safely and reliably and then giving it out for people to read.

big difference between here and a race track, obviously this is not a race track and like i said, it may work for you but obviously the manufacturers have a different opinion and experience than you do and a different view point. i am interested in safe and reliability with performance.

[Sparky2263]

obviously the manufacturers have a different opinion and experience than you do and a different view point.

Reaching.

[metalbraino]

I didn't bother to read all 5 pages of bs so I apologize....but lamerboy is right...Once I switched to the older poppet assembly the problem was solved. Could run stock timing and keep fuel pressure around 80-90 while keeping a 11.5-12.0 afr at WOT.

[Maximus]

That's it I have sit and watched enough of this ****.Metalbraino I hope you didn't join here just to continue a argument.If so look else were.If not your welcome to this board.But I am ending this thread to stop the crap.